browngirl: (Minoan Lady)
[personal profile] browngirl
Having written an entire entry disavowing and countering commonly cited reasons attributed to those of us who like genderswap, here's an entry where I try to explain what my reasons actually are.

Soon after I got into the Star Trek Reboot fandom, when everything felt wide open and full of limitless possibilities, I read this post by Liviapenn where she cast STXI with a gender-reversed set of actors. This post, and the discussions I read subsequently both on and off [livejournal.com profile] st_genderswap, galvanized my imagination; I haven't yet written a story where I have genderswapped everyone, but I've thought about what changing any one or more of them might do to their trajectory in the fictional universe.

One character I've written a great deal about is Leah McCoy, MD, CMO of one version of the ISS Enterprise. I put Leonard McCoy through two transformations at once, to the Mirrorverse and from [assumed to be -- more on that later] cisgendered male to cisgendered female; I did so at first because an intriguing prompt caught my eye, but I've kept writing about Leah McCoy because I find her a fascinating character, exploring how she is and isn't like Leonard McCoy, the intersections of how being female changes her and how the Mirror Universe changes her.

Generally... one of my reasons for writing and reading genderswap overlaps with one of my reasons for writing and reading about minor, unnamed-in-canon and offscreen female characters. For me, my primary canon for Star Trek Reboot is a two-hour-long movie (I was not particularly a Star Trek TOS fan) and there's one major female character and a handful of secondary characters. I love that major female character, but Nyota Uhura isn't and shouldn't have to be the entirety of womanhood in the Star Trek universe, so I write and read a seemingly disproportionate amount about minor female characters, and I also ask myself what the fictional universe would look like if a larger proportion of characters whatsoever were female. That's my main reason for writing genderswap. The specter of 'Mary Sue' is invoked nearly any time we write about female characters, including against genderswap, but I think female characters are worth considering and that the threat of Mary Sues is greatly overblown (but that's another discussion).

As I put it elsewhen, "I first picked up a genderswap prompt because I thought, "What if Character X, with Y canon role, were female instead of male? And then I ran with it. There's no more complicated reason than that, putting more women into the fictional universe and seeing how being female affects a character's in-universe life and in-story 'jobs'."

Although, I've since found that it is more complicated. For instance, I elided at least two aspects of genderswap in my explanation above.

One: despite [livejournal.com profile] liviapenn's brilliant fancasting of Leonard Roberts & Tom Welling, I haven't switched a female character to male. I have seen that presented as a challenge to writers of genderswap, essentially, "Why do you ignore the female characters?" Ignoring them isn't my intent; however, because I want more women in the fictional universe, I'm not as interested in changing the female characters that exist to male. It could make for a very interesting story to write the dynamic of a crew composed of one man and several women and to compare it with the dynamic of one woman and several men, or to mutually swap a het canon couple (Georgina & Winston?) but I haven't written those stories yet, is all.

Two: In my entire discussion above I've conflated 'male' with 'cisgender male' and 'female' with 'cisgender female', and now I want to pull that apart. Another valid and underdone way of writing stories that include more women would be to write about transgender women, as part of writing more about transgender people, who aren't included anywhere near as much as they should be. I've been thinking about this more than my fic output so far likely suggests, since I have only one story so far that could be said to be about a transgender character. As with any other important subject I have not personally lived, I want to do my best. However, as I said in my last post, I don't think stories about transgender characters and stories about cisgender genderswapped characters necessarly occupy the same space, nor do they need to crowd out each other. I'm not done writing yet, and I for one intend to write both genres if I can do so successfully.

I wrote this entry because most of the discussions I've seen of genderswap have been negative portrayals of the practice, so I wanted to start from a positive take on the subject. My friend [livejournal.com profile] azephirin asked once: Do you just plunk the traits of the canon/original version onto their alternately-gendered counterpart, or do you consider how the character would relate to hirself and society as a person of another gender, which tends to change things somewhat? Her words have inspired me ever since.
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Date: 2011-03-27 02:29 pm (UTC)
mtgat: (Shut Up Flash)
From: [personal profile] mtgat
:) I'm glad you wrote this.

Date: 2011-03-28 03:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
I am too. :) Thank you a *lot* for encouraging me.

Date: 2011-03-27 02:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ninhursag.livejournal.com
Thanks for this! I think any time that a woman is involved, genderswapped or otherwise, fandom scrutiny jumps about a thousand degrees and that this is no accident.

Date: 2011-03-28 03:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Fandom's scrutiny, and fandom's judgement. *nods, sighing*

Date: 2011-03-27 02:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mijan.livejournal.com
I enjoyed reading your essays here. And THIS was the sort of thing I was looking for when I originally wrote that post. I seriously JUST wanted to understand what genderswap writers were doing with the characters, what their thought-processes were, and what inspired them to write. Of course, when I originally wrote that post, I was drugged out on heavy doses of painkillers (prescription, short-term), and exhausted from having been in a lot of pain at the time, and let's just say I didn't even foresee how the question I posed, which had been intended as straightforward and innocent, inspired a total shit-storm in the comments.

As a result of that post, I actually went and read a bunch of genderswap fics on recs from people, and enjoyed quite a few of them. And I did get a quite a bit of insight into why people write them. But I wasn't able to deal with the shit-storm of angry comments that I got from people, some of whom came only to slam genderswap (which wasn't what I wanted), and some of whom came to attack me as if I was intending to attack all genderswap readers/writers (which was also NOT my intent). Apparently, on LJ... ask a simple question... ignite WWIII.

So, I apologize, but I f-locked the post. I don't want or need another shit-storm.

Date: 2011-03-28 03:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
This took me awhile to write, but recent discussions I've read and been in reminded me to get it typed up already.

Your post belongs to you and no one else, and I've removed the link since you have friendslocked it. To be honest, when I first read your post I cried, pretty hard, as it read to me as a demand that people who like genderswap justify what we are doing, and the first wave of comments were quite emphatically negative. Words can be imperfect carriers of meaning, sometimes woefully so.

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Date: 2011-03-27 03:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] syredronning.livejournal.com
Thanks for your two entries here, rather interesting to read them.

Date: 2011-03-28 03:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
*beam* Thank you for telling me so. :) And you're welcome.

Date: 2011-03-27 03:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seashadows.livejournal.com
IAWTP, so, SO much! :) You're right in that genderswap isn't inherently OOC; I often wonder what I would be like, for example, as a man. I have to think that I'd be slightly different because of the experiences engendered (no pun intended) by my gender, but the essential genes are the same.

Just because Leonard McCoy is a Lena in some story or other doesn't mean she can't be as cantankerous as her male counterpart; perhaps for different reasons, yes, but I believe that genderswapped characters are the same in all the ways that matter to readers.

Date: 2011-03-28 03:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Thanks. :) That's so much of the fun of it, poking at and turning around a character, figuring out how they would have changed and would be the same.

Date: 2011-03-27 03:16 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] starsandgraces
I love this post! *cuddles it*

because I want more women in the fictional universe, I'm not as interested in changing the female characters that exist to male

This is exactly the reason why I haven't (yet) written female to male genderswap. One of my primary reasons for writing it is the lack of female characters in canon, and while OCs are lovely and I have several, I also want to write about Jamie Kirk or Leah McCoy or Polina Chekova (or or or) and see how they fit into a universe their male counterparts underpinned.

I also like writing genderswap because I find ladies sexy, and I can't pretend that isn't a reason. ;)

Date: 2011-03-28 03:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
*beams* Augh, I knew I forgot something -- I forgot to discuss how a genderswapped character isn't the same as an OC! Oh well, maybe I'll write a third part.

And yes, women are very sexy, and that's definitely a reason, too. I just let that one be to talk about the others, but I cherish that reason. :D

Date: 2011-03-27 03:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amazonziti.livejournal.com
*applause*

Beautifully done, my dear.

Date: 2011-03-28 03:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
*blush* Thank you. :)

Date: 2011-03-27 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sockich.livejournal.com
This is a good post and you should feel good. :D

Date: 2011-03-28 04:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
*beam* Thank you, brighteyes.

Now to get back to writing fic!

Date: 2011-03-27 03:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] capra-maritimus.livejournal.com
*applause*

Eloquently put. :D And, yes, there needs to be more women in fic. :D (goes back to writing James/Mindy/Richard)

Date: 2011-03-28 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Eee! *cheers you on* (Incidentally, I had such fun tonight watching the snowplow episode with my sweetie, making slashy comments all the way through.)

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Date: 2011-03-27 03:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mardia.livejournal.com
I'm really glad you wrote this.

Date: 2011-03-28 04:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
So am I. :) If only to get it out of my head!

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Date: 2011-03-27 03:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kate-mct.livejournal.com
Love this, putting Bones or Kirk's personality into a woman is hysterical IMO and has so many possibilities. Genderswap is one of my favorite parts of fandom.

Date: 2011-03-28 04:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
The infinity of possibilities is certainly one of my favorite things about fandom, too. :)

Date: 2011-03-27 04:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] savoytruffle.livejournal.com
Also nicely done. I'm glad you went through with putting these out there.

Date: 2011-03-28 04:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
*beam* Thanks. :)

Date: 2011-03-27 04:11 pm (UTC)
sage: photo showing two polar bears facing each other with front paws raised and joyous expressions on their faces. (joy: polar bears)
From: [personal profile] sage
\o/ \o/ \o/ ♥

Date: 2011-03-28 04:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
*hugs you a lot* Thank you for encouraging me. :)

Date: 2011-03-27 05:34 pm (UTC)
ext_409703: (books)
From: [identity profile] caitri.livejournal.com
I heart the picspam link, though I gotta say, my head!girl!Kirk is totally Katee Sackhoff. *G*

I just got up so my brains are still a little fuzzy, but thinking about your comment on Mary Sues as itnernalized mysoginy, I think a lot of the same things come into play with genderswap as well--which of course is pretty fascinating since fandom is traditionally groups of women's communities, where we're supposed to actually feel free to play and be ourselves.

Date: 2011-03-28 04:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Mine is Katee Sackhoff with long hair. I think a story I read -- maybe [livejournal.com profile] azephirin's Chase To The Cut -- made me think of her with usually-long hair. But oh, yes.

Sometimes it seems like women are expected to dislike being female in ways men aren't expected to dislike being male, and that in fandom that comes out in the opprobium heaped on het, genderswap, OCs, Mary Sues and anything else 'too female'. But oh, I have Thoughts about that I shouldn't get into here. Maybe I'll rummage up one of my anti-anti-Mary Sue rants and send you the link. :)

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Date: 2011-03-27 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] illariy.livejournal.com
Read and enjoyed this post. No coherent thoughts to add, but: Thank you for sharing. <3

Date: 2011-03-28 04:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Thank you, very much! *curtseys*

Date: 2011-03-27 06:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nix-this.livejournal.com
I've never written a genderswap story, but I love reading them, mainly for the reasons you love writing them: more female lead characters in my fanspaces can only be a good thing. I think it's fascinating to explore the inner world of Jamie Kirk, girl!Spock (I don't think I've ever seen a female Spock with a different name) and Lenore McCoy and how their gender may have influenced their character. I don't buy the essentially female/male traits argument at all, I think it's a factor of environment, conditioning and expectation, so incorporating those into the personality of say, a starship Captain, can lead to not only a great story with explosions and badassery (\o/) but also provoke some insight into gender roles and influences.

I'm tempted now to write some girl Scotty... Muriel Scott, maybe? Morag? *g* What is the female equivalent to Montgomery, anyway? Anyway,t he first time she drinks the entire bridge crew under the table and then goes on to defeat the laws of physics AND the save the Enterprise during a red alert while half-cut on bad scotch (to her shame, she has yet to properly reprogram the synthesizers - she keeps getting distracted by the all the bloody emergencies!).

Tangential question is tangential - but what is your take on mpreg? I tend to avoid it because I've read some really bad examples where the author has put all of the insulting and stereotypical "female traits" onto the pregnant character (and not in a way intended to highlight how ridiculous the stereotypes) that just left a bad taste in my mouth.


Date: 2011-03-28 04:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Moira Scott! I love the thought of her already.

Ah, mPreg. It used to be my go-to genre for my "There are things I don't like but I don't spend all my time saying people shouldn't write them" rants. And God knows Sturgeon's Law applies. BUT. I have read some excellent mPregs that don't stereotypically feminize the pregnant character, that don't sideline women (sometimes even by making the pregnant male character's female partner the father) and that generally don't suck. (Frex, so far in the mPreg plot of [livejournal.com profile] dragonsquill and Cassiopeia's "Communique" the story has been hilarious and non-offensive.) So now I think, like any genre, it has a lot of dross and some chance of finding gold.

Date: 2011-03-27 07:43 pm (UTC)
ext_435322: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ilthit.livejournal.com
A stray thought: There are a lot of ways to write trans* characters, and I've noticed that my first gut instinct on the suggestion of writing, say, Chekov as trans*, used to be "Chekov is a trans woman", which was cured by reading a couple of trans* fics... Now my first instinct is, "Chekov was CAFAB", which isn't genderswap at all and doesn't have to affect canon much. You could still write it the other way too and it would be trans* fic but then it would be genderswap too? I guess I have rather indistinct ideas about the boundary between trans* and genderswap fic. And that's not even getting into the non-binary territory...

I wonder if I should try writing genderswap. I've never done it beyond drawing pictures. There's always characterization happening in that process too, so I do get what you're saying about how having been socialized as female and identifying as female would change how those characters interact with the world. I'm thinking of that Big Bang Theory genderswap pic I did. Penny would still be a Seventeen magazine cover, just with pretty boy good looks and a focus on music rather than acting, because the locus of his identity would still be external, so he'd be drawn to the creative profession and personal style most likely to win him adoration. I actually didn't have to change the boys around all that much because, well, us geeks, we're kind of less interested in presentation than in shiny things. But it was fun!

Date: 2011-03-28 04:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Sometimes I think you think on a whole other, more expansive, level than I do. I'm thinking a lot about what you've said here.

*beams at you*

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Date: 2011-03-27 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mercaque.livejournal.com
*nodding along with both posts eagerly* I'm finding all this particularly interesting since one of my coming-of-age fandoms was Ranma 1/2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranma_%C2%BD). Although both canon and fandom can be guilty of some real problems, the imagination and willingness of the fandom to play with sex and gender in pretty much... every permutation imaginable, was a formative fandom experience.

I personally find it sort of empowering, as a female reader and writer, to suggest that Chekov's adorable geniusness and Sulu's general badassery and Kirk's command are not off-limits to my gender and are not incompatible with "a female personality" (I loathe phrasing it that way, but I can't think of a better way to express it). For that reason I tend to feel positively about genderswap, but I also realize that my positive emotions aren't everybody's.

I actually had not heard the Mary Sue criticism of genderswap before. Maybe there are some individual genderswap stories where that applies (or I'm just out of the loop), but I'm surprised to see it as an across-the-board criticism. I feel like, in popular perception, making a male character unambiguously awesome doesn't trigger the same reactions as when it's a female character. And I actually don't think that reaction is always wrong, because sometimes "making a female character awesome" can come from an author who seems to define "awesome" as "successfully conforming to all of society's misogynistically impossible expectations for women." So while I think the Mary Sue epithet gets thrown around too freely, I think it can have some legitimacy in those situations. Or at least, I'm sympathetic to the place of frustration that can cause people to reach for the "Mary Sue" tag, even if I don't always personally agree with the use of it.

I feel like most of the Trek genderswap I've read averts that pretty strongly, which is one of the reasons I like it so much. But I can understand how a reader might have different experiences within the fandom and/or come at it with different expectations.

I sort of want to tie all of these issues (Mary Sue, genderswap, and even to some degree slash itself) into some insightful theory about female members of fandom finding ways to "own" or at least make peace with a male-slanted canon, but it's not clicking in my brain exactly right. I also don't mean to make this All About Misogyny - while I think that's an important factor, I recognize that it's not the only issue at play here. It's the only one I feel even a little qualified to offer thoughts on, though XD

Thank you so much for these posts, for writing so clearly and elegantly on a potentially divisive topic, and for giving me more to think about in regards to my own attitudes and participation in fandom.

Date: 2011-03-28 04:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
I personally find it sort of empowering, as a female reader and writer, to suggest that Chekov's adorable geniusness and Sulu's general badassery and Kirk's command are not off-limits to my gender and are not incompatible with "a female personality" (I loathe phrasing it that way, but I can't think of a better way to express it).

*nod* exactly!

Augh, it's getting late and I'm getting terse, but I wanted to thank you for this lovely long, meaty, thoughtful comment. I wrote this with some trepidation and instead I'm getting really wonderful responses. :)
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Date: 2011-03-28 04:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
I am all kinds of blushing, and will continue working hard to deserve this wonderful compliment you've paid me. :)

And yeah, I'm not saying genderswap stories can't suck. Sturgeon's Law and all that. I just wrote this because... I keep seeing genderswap brought up by its enemies, who say it must necessarily be bad, and I think like any other genre it has all sorts of potential.

Also, I should be asleep. :) *adds a link and hugs you gratefully*
Edited Date: 2011-03-28 04:42 am (UTC)

Date: 2011-03-27 11:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] solvent90.livejournal.com
I like your brain a lot. This is crystal-clear and very interesting. My brain is fried at the moment, so I can't say too clearly what it made me think, but it did make me think. Not only about genderswap - although that too, it's good to have explained why your Leah McCoy fascinates me so deeply and twistily - but also about the whole female fanfic/storytelling/writing-Jane-Eyre enterprise. I'll come back to this tomorrow, I hope, and try to put things into proper words. For now: ♥

Date: 2011-03-28 04:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Eee, this means especially much from you, because you read legal writings, so I know you appreciate limpid prose. *beams*

I look forward to any further thoughts you have, since I know already they'll be excellent.

Date: 2011-03-28 01:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] taraljc.livejournal.com
I find fandom's reaction to canon genderswaps (Starbuck in BSG, Kono in H50, Quinn Mallory in "Sliders", etc.) in relation to their reaction to fandom genderswap fascinating. On the one hand because in testosterone-infused canons that lack female leads, it gives us mroe awesome gals to play with. But on the otehr hand, it is applauded in canon yet teated so warily in fandom.

I will admit that I didn't take to genderswap until Trek fandom--and even then, few and far between. Mostly because like all AUs, what inetrests me is how they develop the characters through their differences, and illustrate their comonalities, and not all stories do tis.

But I will say a HUGE draw for me with your Lenore McCoy stories is the examination of gender in the Mirror Universe. Part of why I continue to write Mirror Universe stories is the examination of how sex (the act) comes into play in a universe where power play is, if not the norm, then certainly a mroe accepted practice. And how that relates to dominant and submissive partners, as well as the idea that if you are not a predator in the MU, then you're prey.

This is getting wacky--blame lack fo sleep But I want to THANK YOU for putting yourself out there and writing these posts. I know what the stakes potentially are for you as both a fan and a fan writer, and I am giving you major hugs.

Lastly, here, have a pressie!

Number One and Captain Pike

Date: 2011-03-28 04:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
If by 'wacky' you mean *awesome*. I really appreciate all the points you brought up! (Heh, I heard way too many people talk about how much they hated BSG's genderswap, actually. Usually their reasons were eyerolly.) And yeah, the Mirrorverse is a fascinating place to negotiate as a woman, which is part of why I keep writing about Leah's life and times (and delighting in stories about your Mirror!One).

And oh, I adore the manips! Thank you! Mr. Cumberbatch has the right sort of otherworldly strange beauty and laser-eyed look for Number One, and I need to find out who that gloriously regal lady is who is your Captain Pike. Wow. *hugs you gratefully*

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Date: 2011-03-28 02:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thistlerose.livejournal.com
I'm glad you wrote this. You've articulated your points clearly and thoughtfully. *applauds*

Date: 2011-03-28 04:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
*blush* Thank you. :)

Date: 2011-03-28 02:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eppic.livejournal.com
i like these words so much.

Date: 2011-03-28 04:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Eee, thank you! I tried to organize them somewhat sensibly. :)

Date: 2011-03-28 03:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] random00b.livejournal.com
Thank you for these essays. I personally am a HUGE fan of genderswap (as well as the few trans-) in Star Trek Reboot!verse, for many of the same reasons you note. I specifically like exploring how does the predominantly male crew relate to the same personality/character traits, but in female form.

Date: 2011-03-28 04:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
*beam* Thank you for telling me so, and you're welcome. You know, I should write a followup to this with recs.

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Date: 2011-03-28 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mariole.livejournal.com
> do you consider how the character would relate to hirself and society as a person of another gender, which tends to change things somewhat?

That's how I look at it. There are certainly women who have male-i-fied themselves to fit into the corporate world-- seen and dealt with many of those, and they usually strike me as rather sad examples of what unqualified ambitious striving will do. Then you got women who play off their sexuality to manipulate men, most of whom are so stupid they fall for it-- even otherwise intelligent men.

But when you change the dynamic and you have mostly women interacting with women, you really do get a different society. Sex comes out of the equation, either denying it or over-emphasizing it, and you get a bunch of personalities interacting in a different many than a set of male personalities would.

I can see the appeal of that for fanfic. All of fiction is a "what if"-- so why should this "what if" be any more or less valid than a "what if" where everyone is gay or has wings or has magical powers or whatever.

Interesting discussion. Thanks for posting!

Date: 2011-03-28 04:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Hi, brighteyes! *waves*

I'm not sure if sex necessarily leaves the equation when we have female characters interacting, although depending on the characters and their interactions, it definitely can. Or it can change in all sorts of interesting ways. IDIC as the Vulcans would say.

Thank you very much for commenting on this, and you're very welcome. :)

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