An interesting comparison

[browngirl]

Elementary and Star Trek, specifically... I was looking up Elementary on Tumblr, because I've heard good things about the show and to behold the wonder that is Lucy Liu. Even knowing how hated the show is by many Sherlock fans, the level of vitriol was astonishing. If I had a dollar for every time I saw Elementary called "homophobic" for having Dr. Watson be female [because that casting is supposed to be to prevent a slashy relationship, which supposition has been belied by the utterly non-romantic and deeply close relationship the show has created between Holmes and Watson], I could buy a TV for my bedroom.

In fact it reminds me of those who call Reboot Trek homophobic for having the Spock/Uhura romance, complete with petitions to replace that romance with canon Kirk/Spock. It strikes me as interesting that in both Elementary and Star Trek Reboot there is a large and/or vocal cadre of fans who would like to see an extant woman of color shoved aside in favor of a not-actually-canon relationship between two men (White men, to be specific, but that leads into a discussion of whether Spock counts as White that I don't feel like having right now), complete with accusations of homophobic intent in having the women be present.

This frustrates me as a slash writer and fan -- it gives us a bad name in fandom, and contributes to the not-inaccurate perception that slash fandom has a lot of misogyny in it, and also to the I-really-hope-it's-not-accurate-and-work-against-it-being-accurate perception that slash is necessarily and irredeemably misogynist. It frustrates me even more as a woman of color who would like to see us represented more often and more diversely in narrative fiction; it seems that it is even easier for many of my fellow fans to attack and to wish to be rid of a female character if she's also not White, and that's kind of depressing.

I also saw a note going around on Tumblr along the lines of "your slash fandom is not LGBT activism". It always seems strange to me that that isn't as obvious as a grape not being a kumquat. While stories do matter to how people accept other people in 'real' life, writing or reading a story is not necessarily an activist act, and it seems to me to be downright supportive of oppression to demand the erasure of women of color in service of same-sex relationships (not least if those same-sex relationships aren't even canon, not that it would be at all okay if they were).

Besides, for me personally... I've complained before that I have a hard time enjoying Kirk/Spock because it feels like I'd have to agree to hate Uhura to do so, and/or hang out with fans who bond over hating her. I'm starting to feel the same way about Sherlock/Watson. I know it's possible to write and enjoy slash without hating female characters, not least because I do it, so it depresses me to see so many of my fellow fans thinking they have to hate to express love.

Comments

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

atm i just want Kirk/Uhura/Spock with either Kirk or Spock as subby (not at all related to the topic at hand but I'm just secretly hoping someone will see this comment and rec me)


Then you want vaingirlfic's stories. I'l try to find you more recs when I get home. -- Ruby from my other journal.

[kayliemalinza.livejournal.com]

*BURSTS INTO THREAD* ot3 rec! thank you! *ABSCONDS FROM THREAD*

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

...As a long-time fan of Kirk/Spock/McCoy, I am very sure that it's not at all about Uhura/women/women-of-color. A not so small part of the Kirk/Spock fandom has always been very inventive to make McCoy the third wheel/superannoying/totallyuseless/basicallyignored in their stories, despite him being an inherent part of the classic Trek triangle. It's solely about having KirkSpockUndyingTwosomeLove, IMVHO, YMMV and all.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I am very sure that it's not at all about Uhura/women/women-of-color.

There is definitely part of it that comes from the idea that the only way for Kirk and Spock's connection to be special is for them to only be connected to each other in the whole universe; that idea leads to denigrating McCoy, and I disapprove of both that idea and of denigrating McCoy.

However, I don't think you can validly tell me that I have not seen what I have seen, when I've seen Uhura referred to in ways that are codedly racist (in the context of racism in the US, where I grew up and where the people making the statements I cite are posting from -- one of the first things I do when I see someone say something I find objectionable is go look to see where they are from to provide context, as the same terms mean different things in different places). I'm not delusional, and I've seen this pattern applied not just to other female characters but specifically to women of color. What prompted me to write this was seeing it applied to Lucy Liu's Joan Watson.

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

Hi there, sorry for wording it too sharply. I guess I didn't get the point that the arguments were really that racist. Which is really sad.

So, while I still think that it's got a lot more to do with the constellations conflicting with The Pairing (and I don't think it would matter a lot if it were a man or a woman or an alien or whatever other being), I agree that having the arguments based on anything racist is troublesome :/

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's probably a good thing I don't have access to Tumblr at the moment, as finding examples will just be distressing.

But yeah, these denigrations are definitely means to the end of Exalting The OTP By Denigrating All Others, as you describe. I really hate that tactic, a sort of metastisized monogamy that has always annoyed me. I remember first seeing it in LOTR fandom, and it aggravates me here. Kirk and Spock, whether TOS or Reboot, have a special relationship -- why don't these writers show that rather than saying they're special by depicting them as otherwise surrounded by dolts unworthy of relating with them, by depicting luminaries like McCoy and Uhura as dolts? It is very annoying.

[mirabile-dictu.livejournal.com]

Wow, I'm so glad I don't see those anti-Elementary places! I love Elementary so much; it's (imo) light-years better than the BBC version (which I still adore). I'd never cared much for Lucy Liu until I saw her as Watson and now I realize it wasn't Lucy I didn't care for but the roles and/or movies she was in.

This all makes me very sad. Because you're right: it is possible -- and pleasurable! -- to enjoy slash without hating female characters. Dang.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I will continue to be glad of fans such as you who have more sense. :)

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

There's a distinction between activism and acts of defiance. Writing slash - and writing stories about strong women - sometimes falls into the latter category, but not the former.

The fans' attitudes is one of the reasons I haven't watched BBC's "Sherlock." I don't understand the problem. There are SO many versions of Sherlock Holmes; "Elementary" has a female Watson, but there are still plenty of male Watsons! We can all get what we want! (Though not canonical Sherlock/Watson, I guess.)

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Thanks, bb. :)

I feel bad, like I'm too able to be influenced, too permeable, to be put off something I might like because it has loudly obnoxious fans, but it really does affect my evaluation of something if lots of its fans hate people whom I identify with and don't feel warrant hatred.

Plus, there's the "Get off my side" frustration. When our fellow fans pull this bullshit it causes others to think, and to tell us, that our hobby is destructive. When I wrote that essay defending slash against a recent condemnation thereof,, I couldn't and wouldn't deny that the "You're a homophobe if you aren't a slasher" foolishness that the author decried is absolutely awful as well as untrue; I can see why people think we should all get rid of slash because some slashers indulge in such foolishness as that and the misogyny I'm decrying here, and I try to do a bit every so often to point out that slash doesn't have to contain either.

(As you know, Bob Thistle. *laugh at myself and my wordiness*)

[Comment edited so as to not re-start one discussuon while having another.]

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

And you do it very well!

Plus, there's the "Get off my side" frustration.

Oh, I hear you. I was very nervous about how the Kirk/McCoy fans would react to Carol Marcus in STD. Fortunately, it turned out to be a non-issue. (As far as I can tell.) I think female characters are going to be attacked, whatever their race, if they're perceived as coming between a desirable male character and ... someone else. (Could be another man, could be the viewer in her fantasies.) I think society conditions women to see one another as the enemy, only in slash circles we get to pretend we're being self-righteous.

And I think you're right, that Uhura and Joan Watson and Gwen in "Arthur" get more vitriol, or maybe a particular kind of vitriol, because they're vulnerable on more than one front.

[hypertwink.livejournal.com]

I like Sherlock. And I think I will try to watch it but my liking for it may be forever tainted (I sorta kinda liked STID, but I probably would have liked it more if The Cumberbatch wasn't in the cast); so it would be safe to assume the same bias would be present whenever(if) the future season of Sherlock airs. The fandom is one reason I got turned off (well, that and the jerkiness of one of its leads).

[seashadows.livejournal.com]

I don't watch Sherlock - I tried to get into a couple of episodes of the BBC version and they didn't hold my interest. But here's my take, personally:

It is awesome that they have a woman of color as Watson. However, there are some legitimate concerns that the BBC Sherlock producers have, in interviews and such, been queer-baiting fans who legitimately want representation, and that Elementary is kind of a way for Hollywood to acknowledge the very deep Sherlock/Watson subtext without sticking their necks out (I don't trust any show that says they're not going to put the male lead and the female lead together - in the same vein, I don't watch How I Met Your Mother). Joan Watson should not under any circumstances be shoved aside, but the American and English versions are also different canons. Me? I'd love Sherlock and John to get together. But I'd also be happy with Sherlock/Joan, provided they didn't mangle Joan's character to do so (the stupid trope where the newly "obsessive" woman grills the man as to where he's been all day comes to mind).

Also, another two cents: liking Kirk/Spock doesn't mean one has to hate Uhura. I don't, and during the latest movie, I squee'd and went "Yes! Yes! Yesssss!" when she spoke Klingon to the Klingon horde like an ABSOLUTE BOSS. She's intelligent, fantastic at languages, and a lot of other things that I want to be (except in medicine, for which I turn to Bones). There are a lot of ways to ship Kirk and Spock without denigrating Uhura or having the narrative be terrible to her, and I think that the fact that fans haven't taken those routes speaks more disparagingly of the fandom than of the ship itself.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

However, there are some legitimate concerns that the BBC Sherlock producers have, in interviews and such, been queer-baiting fans who legitimately want representation

That's an annoying thing of the BBC Sherlock showrunners to do (every time John sputtered "We're not Gay!" I rolled my eyes), but not the fault of the people who created Elementary

and that Elementary is kind of a way for Hollywood to acknowledge the very deep Sherlock/Watson subtext without sticking their necks out (I don't trust any show that says they're not going to put the male lead and the female lead together

When people voiced this concern a year ago when Elementary was being publicised, I thought it was a legitimate worry. But they've spent an entire season showing that that really, truly, is not where they're going with Sherlock and Joan, so I think it's no longer a valid reason for the show not to exist. Let alone that Lucy Liu "doesn't look smart enough" or that "a man and a woman can't possibly be friends" or so on ad nauseam.

There are a lot of ways to ship Kirk and Spock without denigrating Uhura or having the narrative be terrible to her, and I think that the fact that fans haven't taken those routes speaks more disparagingly of the fandom than of the ship itself.

This is totally true, which is why I'm sad at my own reaction, if that makes sense. I want to like K/S, this grand old ship with so much glorious onscreen closeness and rich fandom history, but I think of it now and think of awful things obnoxious fans have said unnecessarily in its defense, and they dent my enjoyment severely even though I should be able to ignore them.

[seashadows.livejournal.com]

You do make a valid point about Elementary. I don't watch it, though, so you'd know better than I do about how they're structuring the friendship. (I have male friends I wouldn't do for love or money, also, so I do know that men and women can be friends. But Hollywood's history has shown that that's not the case, so it's really executive handling of the relationship I don't trust.)

I compared it to BBC Sherlock because they aired so close together - I thought that two Sherlock shows airing at the same time might take cues from each other and/or resort to the same tropes.

And fuck them, 'cause Lucy Liu looks smart enough to take on the world.

Hey, you can always hang out with me. XD I'm not a member of the big ship communities for the same reasons.

[jadelennox]

Yeah, I love how Elementary is very clear that they aren't being shippy: Joan/Sherlock is the broiest of bromances, just as any good Holmes/Watson is. And yeah, people hating on the woman of color because she gets interferes with the white boy non-canon ship is fucking upsetting.

[froggie.livejournal.com]

I find that extremely frustrating, especially considering both of those series have two of the least problematic female characters I've seen on any television show in a while. Lucy Liu's Watson is especially written without the usual it seems, "oh, but she's a woman, so here's the part where she's sexy" (which unfortunately probably has to do with the whole Watson-used-to-be-a-dude thing, but I like to think that someone had some sense somewhere along the way).

I don't know...I find it really hard to find things wrong with Uhura and Lucy-Liu-Watson. Elementary is one of the few shows out there that doesn't boil my blood. I love how Lucy Liu Watson and twitchy Sherlock are actually (and adorably dysfunctional) team (which I ship mercilessly).

I don't think that liking gay porn comes from misogyny, but I do think that the culture of slash fandom itself stems from a culture of misogyny. It's a little mix of a culture where women can never be main characters (because no one in mainstream knows how to write them/wants to write them), a culture where women have grown up reading this surrogate literature (think of all the coming-of-age novels that one reads in high school that are considered "classics". Now think about how many of those coming of age novels have female characters. Yeah.), and a culture where women are not allowed to pursue, only be pursued. I was always taught that to take on aggressive characteristics was "mannish".

I don't know where I'm going with this exactly...but Uhura and Watson are the best. <3

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, and also yes.

I don't think that liking gay porn comes from misogyny, but I do think that the culture of slash fandom itself stems from a culture of misogyny.

There is a lot, isn't there? I still remember the first time I heard someone say, "I like slash because I don't have to deal with icky women issues" and how shocked I was. (And if I never have to hear another woman spout misogyny and then say, "I can't hate women, I am one, I'm just not frivolous and shallow like all other women!" it will be too soon. You'd think they never heard of the concept of internalized bigotry.) I hope optimistically that we can weed it out as we go along, because I really do love shippy fic including slash.

And oh yes, I adore Joan Watson and Nyota Uhura.

[strangerian.livejournal.com]

This, about the culture of slash fandom coming from its surrounding culture of misogyny, is exactly what I wanted to say, so I'll just add "THIS" and let you say it. And thank you.

Unfortunately, despite all claims, many of the fans then and now do not rise above their surrounding culture.

I've been hearing a lot about Elementary and Lucy Liu really working well, which makes me almost ready to give the show a try, in spite of the high probability that TBTP will throw her under a truck somehow.

[hypertwink.livejournal.com]

Actually, she has become more awesome exponentially as the season rolled along.

[jouissant.livejournal.com]

Besides, for me personally... I've complained before that I have a hard time enjoying Kirk/Spock because it feels like I'd have to agree to hate Uhura to do so, and/or hang out with fans who bond over hating her. I'm starting to feel the same way about Sherlock/Watson. I know it's possible to write and enjoy slash without hating female characters, not least because I do it, so it depresses me to see so many of my fellow fans thinking they have to hate to express love.

This. I don't watch Elementary (although I want to! So busy...maybe I can marathon it in July after my summer class is over) but so much this with Kirk/Spock. Mostly regarding participation in the fandom rather than writing or reading fic, but there are so many times when I'm embarrassed to ship K/S because of bad behavior and just super gross treatment of Uhura. I've also seen a decent amount of K/S-centric meta that vacillates between claiming that "I don't hate Uhura, it's just the writers' fault that her character is so (insert perceived fault here)" and then turning around and vilifying her *as a person* for things like daring to discuss her relationship issues with Spock while on the shuttle to Kronos (so unprofessional, amirite? Not at all a moment that was WRITTEN BY WRITERS) and I side-eye that so hard. The same people would have a squee meltdown if it was Kirk talking to Spock about their relationship. And I (sadly) think you're absolutely right that it seems to be easier for fans to treat female characters of color this way.

Anyway. I have very complicated/conflicted feelings about my love of Uhura and my love of Kirk/Spock. I have largely come to the conclusion that it's possible for them to coexist, though it means avoiding large chunks of fandom, which is okay.Into Darkness was also helpful in this capacity, since it made me ship K/S/U like crazy. Handy, that.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

So much word. And thank you for reminding me of the glorious K/S/U-itude of STID -- I am going to write another K/S/U story one of these days, I really am.

[jouissant.livejournal.com]

I am going to write another K/S/U story one of these days, I really am.

Dooooo it! I just signed up for Rarepair Fest and they freaking qualified as a rare ship! That there is so little fic is clearly a travesty of epic proportions. I'm writing one right now but it had to go and grow a plot on me (as well as become a receptacle for all my post-STID feelings, apparently) so who knows when it'll be done.

[boosette.livejournal.com]

I recommend marathoning - I think it plays better that way.

[chienne-folle.livejournal.com]

I don't read any of the places you read, but I'm sorry to hear that there's so much casual racism in the places you go. *hug*

I've never been able to see Kirk/Spock, partly because Kirk is just such a flaming heterosexual, and partly because I want Spock for ME. :-)

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

It's the world. *sighs and hugs you back*

[hypertwink.livejournal.com]

I have issues with Cumberbatch and Sherlock but I kinda find this whole issue of homophobia, hilarious. Seriously? Also, there were rumblings going on late last year/early this year in Teen Wolf, where fans were demanding two of the leads (who have been canonically straight) fall into a relationship, and some accusations of homophobia was being thrown around or whatnot..I don't know if there is still some of that left, since I don't read much about TW these days, news or fic.

p.s. I love Elementary, Jonny and Lucy, btw.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

I wish I could find them hilarious, but they're tossing around a serious subject in a harmful way (and also I take stuff too seriously). And oh, I heard about that with Teen Wolf! Most fandoms would take the ship video and just rejoice!

[boosette.livejournal.com]

Made worse by, well:

Teen Wolf's showrunner is a gay man.

The show already has not explicitly specifically gay character who is liked and accepted by his peers and community.

So I choose to write off those cries of homophobia from people who Aren't calling for Danny to have a larger role as shippers being butthurt. Because "why isn't Danny A series regular character? Is the network motivated by fear the gay will hurt their ratings?" is a reasonable concern. "MAKE MY SHIP CANON OR YOUR ALL HOMOPHOBES! 1" is, how to put this delicately? Not.

[weepingnaiad.livejournal.com]

I haven't watched Elementary because I am actually a bad television fan. I either don't get into a show, or I don't keep up with it.

But I'm sure we've talked about K/S and how I just can't read it. If it's TOS, then it needs to be K/S/M and if it's AOS, then there's no way I'm breaking up Spock/Uhura, especially not after STID where Uhura was brilliant and amazing and fabulous. AOS!Spock still pisses me off so I can't really write him to do him justice.

Plus, I've seen the K/S fandom be horrible so I'll just stay away. And the BBC Sherlock fans (or is it just the Cumberbatch fans?) are pretty over the top, so, again, it's just safer to stay away. I'll stay in my little corner of fandoms where the ladies don't, in general, get written out or abused.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

I hear you, my naiiad. That's one of the things I like about K/Mc fandom -- between nifty representations of Jocelyn and the deliberate inclusion of Joanna, it's a good place to be female. Not perfect -- where is? -- but good.

[boosette.livejournal.com]

I actually ship Joan/Sherlock loads more than I ship John/Sherlock (which is, in fact, not at all. I want to scream at John: GET OUT GET OUT THIS IS A TOXIC FRIENDSHIP HOW MANY TIMES HAS HE NEARLY GOTTEN YOU KILLED GET OUT!"). This is not because I'm homophobic, but because of Cumberbunny's Sherlock being a diva asshole with tendencies toward sociopathy -- I feel no sympathy for him and would not, in fact, wish him on anyone. Miller's Sherlock, OTOH, makes a solid point to behave like a decent human being toward other people, and to become a better person himself, and to not hurt or bring harm upon the people he cares about. (And sometimes he's kindof a dick. But he's not the kind of dick I'd want to eject from my life.)

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

BBC Sherlock reminds me of an Elf, one of the haughty mysterious dangerous cruel not-on-a-human-wavelength sorts. So I totally see what you mean. (Also, I love how you do not suffer Draco-in-Leather-Pants types to go unchallenged.)

[boosette.livejournal.com]

I prefer Hobbits, grounded in reality, kindness, and desire for stability and lunch.

AFIAC people can have their fanon, and can wallow in it, and have fun with it or whatever. I even take a broad brush approach to canon compliance. (that is, if canon doesn't contradict it explicitly, it's compliant)

But ffs I get grumpy when people tag one thing and pretend it's another or who bring their vitriol for the things I love into spaces for the things I love. (Part of it is that tumblr has made me more comfortable telling people who tag their hate in so many words that while they are entitled to their opinion, their opinion is not welcome in this particular space.)

(I am, apparently, That Bitch.)

(I also read the diy, interiors, and crafts tags more than pretty much any fandom tags at this point. I suppose you could say decorating my apartment is my fandom?)

[jadelennox]

Housemate says Miller's Sherlock is the first of the Chaotic Good Sherlocks, with Cumberbatch's edging toward the Chaotic Evil and RDJ's more in the Chaotic Neutral. But yeah, Miller's is the only one I'd wish on *any* replationship.

[gardnerhill.livejournal.com]

Sadly, there's been a streak of misogyny throughout slash from its very outset. When there was only one version of Star Trek (that one old cancelled TV show in perpetual reruns), I was very often troubled by the hatred aimed squarely at Nurse Chapel for the mortal sin of being in love with Spock. (She also got in the way of all those Mary Sue 'perfect young woman just like me joins the Enterprise and gets Spock' stories.) Uhura did show up here and there as Kirk's love interest - once or twice Spock's and at one point McCoy's - she didn't seem to figure in to the hatred as much back then because she didn't figure in to the stories as much, period. But of course once they made a Spock/Uhura relationship front and center in the Reboot, out came the knives.

"A = Good, therefore B must = Bad" is the mark of a new, poor or inexperienced writer - of which there are no lack in fanfiction. "How do I explain why these two nominally-straight men fell in love with each other? I know - all the women are horrible bitches! Bleah, who'd wanna fuck THAT? Horrible, horrible women, ew!" "Um. Karen. You do know YOU'RE a woman, right?" "Yeah, and all my life pop culture and my mother have been telling me how worthless and useless women are, until I've internalized it so much I might as well be Phyllis Schlafly."

The trope is older and deeper than fanfic. "Wedding Bells Are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine" (1929), the tendency of most popular fiction (including the original Holmes stories) to treat women as disposable hindrances to the Grand Adventure or the True Relationship (between two men, or a boy and his collie). No women aboard the Pequod, or on that Mississippi raft, or among the Fellowship. When a woman does invariably appear - mostly to prove the hero's straight - marriage transforms a sweet young love object into a nagging shrew from whom Our Hero happily flees to go adventuring with his buds.

Misogyny runs deep - and so does racism. There have been other female Watsons before (They Might Be Giants, Return of the World's Greatest Detective), but I'd never seen the level of vitriol aimed at the white women Watsons that Lucy Liu's casting brought out of Sherlock Holmes fans. Oh, gosh, white boys, is she not being Soo Lin Yao - a pretty, sexy and helpless Chinese woman in distress whose murder isn't as important as Sherlock and John saving the white woman? Gee, Cumberstans, is the thought of a woman in pop culture as realistically brave and smart and capable as Sherlock Holmes threatening your internalized misogyny?

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

*jumps to my feet applauding*
(I feel like I should write more but all I can do is cheer in agreement!)

[karadin.livejournal.com]

It is not homophobic to have a female Watson, or a female Sherlock for that matter, I'm hoping it's just young fandom being excessive and silly,. because some of the arguments they make for their otps are beyond the pale - as much as I love Destiel, some of the fandom drives me fucking crazy - honestly, I don't want to see my ship become canon, because there is no way the writers could possibly do the pair justice, shipping is fun because it's not canon, you can do whatever you want in your own little space.

And let's not forget that some shows (like Teen Wolf) have a gay character who is ignored by the slash fandom, in favor of a pair of actors who might hardly interact on screen, (but have natural chemistry or are hot) so, how is it activism to deny the canon gay character, for the subtexual pair? There is a gay blog that recently started including slash postings by fangirls, so now you see the site polls swamped by the fringe of slash fans, to the detriment of the main audience of this queer blog - the slash fans aren't invested in queer issues, they are there to fetishize the cute guys of their fave show. And don't get me started on how disgusting slash fans can act toward the object of their crush, with rampant sexual harassment and disparagement of the actor's family, friends and children.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Oy. It is to facepalm. *shakes head*

[karadin.livejournal.com]

sorry, haha, had to vent.

[seshat-maat.livejournal.com]

I always find those criticisms of Elementary by BBC Sherlock fans mind-boggling after all the homophobic or at least deeply heteronormative crap that those involved in producing the BBC Sherlock have publicly spouted at one point or another. Also, Elementary is a win-win situation, because either you get the leads together, which is still in dialogue with the entire history of male!Watson, or you do what they've done thus far and create a dense and convincing male-female platonic friendship, which rarely happens on TV. Either way is major yay! (I have...mostly erred in the other direction in terms of spaces I hang out in, so almost every time I see the two linked, it's someone using Elementary to whack BBC Sherlock. But I tend only to venture onto Tumblr for posts or tags that someone has already told me are safe. :D)

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's exactly it -- these criticisms are just *mindboggling*.

I keep debating getting a Tumblr. Having Tumblr savior vs letting myself argue with idiots...

[lazar-grrl.livejournal.com]

One of the reasons I've always thought that male slash developed such a firm following was because it dealt with a relationship between two fully-fleshed out characters. In a lot of series, even today, you have the male lead(s) with characterization and meaningful storylines, and then the female [mother/wife/girlfriend/potential interest/in distress/victim]. Women existed to be something for a man, usually the lead(s). What do we know about TOS Uhura or Christine Chapel's backgrounds? When were they made the center of a story? Males are dynamic and interesting, males have backstory and angst, males are developed multi-dimensionally. Females...aren't. Take away the male they relate to and you have nothing. So I think that there's a tendency to be attracted to these characters who feel like real people instead of the cut-out to be placed in a scene to remind us what a great boyfriend Male Lead is or how hen-pecked second Male Lead is.

Women weren't characters, they were objects and plot points, and it's hard to build a story around that. Or to get used to that not being the case.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

I see what you mean (and you're not the only person to note and to describe this phenomenon), but... it's no longer 1970. While there are still way too many flat female characters, there are increasing numbers of female characters who are rounded actual people (or at least honest attempts at same). Why should the response to such rounded portrayals be hostility?

To speak just about myself for a moment, I find many female characters interesting and compelling; I write slash because I enjoy literalizing the subtext I see between sets of characters and many of those sets are pairs (or trios, or...) of men. Not all of them are, though.

[lazar-grrl.livejournal.com]

That wasn't as clear as I'd hoped. Blame the muscle relaxants. What I was going for was an initial source for the exclusion of women which carried over into current attitudes, now more extreme.

[strangerian.livejournal.com]

Coming in a bit late.

There are times I honestly think the whole Mary Sue vein of fanwriting, starting in Trek, is simply that there are so few female ongoing characters in Original Trek, so it needs more to be anything like balanced in *anybody's* imagination. Also, the episode plots very often featured a female visiting scientist/diplomat/alien of the week for Kirk to romance, so fanfic that invented similar characters was just following the show's pattern. (And also, a lot of the tie-in novels did exactly that.)

Anyway, when there's *still* only one woman on screen, I tend to roll my eyes a lot. But, when a show creates a mostly-male drama that's at least in theory supposed to include women, what do the creators *think* fans will make of it? It's either slash or add women to the mix. Or (oh please) both.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

There are times I honestly think the whole Mary Sue vein of fanwriting, starting in Trek, is simply that there are so few female ongoing characters in Original Trek, so it needs more to be anything like balanced in *anybody's* imagination.

I agree with you so much, and this points up why hating on Mary Sues is so problematic; so much of it is dressing up "No women allowed!" in the guise of concerns about good writing.

[mariole.livejournal.com]

I've written plenty of slash, but I don't ship K/S. I view them as buddies, not lovers. Come on, Spock is Vulcan! He's not going to have a romantic relationship. That said, I've read WAY more S/Uhura and I ever read K/S (I try one once in a while, and it just never rings true for me).

To me the canon violation is having NuSpock so incredibly emotional, but the reboot gets enough of the Vulcaness right that I'm okay overlooking it (even while mentally shouting "Leonard Nimoy forever!"). Which makes me inconsistent as well as homophobic, I guess.

You have a great point about the weird hate that's exuded when people don't see their favorite ship celebrated. I've gotten plenty of comments where people say, "I normally only ever read F/S, but in this case..." etc. Why close yourself off? Why be so one-dimensional? Also, I can enjoy my personal pairing without wanting to obliterate all the other possible pairings. Isn't fanfic, and fiction in general, supposed to expand the mind, provide an outlet for creativity? Why can't people just enjoy what they like, and let others do the same?

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Well and gloriously said, my friend. *beams at you*