To Portray Without Fetishizing?

[browngirl]

I was thinking about this off and on lately, and something I read threw it into high relief for me. So, to start this post melodramatically, I almost deleted 'Blue Eyes Shine' last night, as well as the 'Untitled Wheelchair Sex Story'. Someone sensible whose judgement I really respect wrote about how much they hate disability fetish stories, and mentioned the "Pike wheelchair sex" prompts over at the Kink Meme. Since I directly filled one, and what I wrote gave me ideas I used in "Blue Eyes Shine," I realized I might well be contributing to the problem she described.

It was a shock. In both stories I never... I honestly never would have thought, and didn't approach it as, the wheelchair being a fetish. I thought the request was about a location and a particular time period, analogous to 'shower sex during the Academy' or 'sex in the Captain's chair.' I wrote two stories (counting 'Blue Eyes Shine' set when Pike was canonically using a wheelchair, around the time of the Medal Ceremony that's the penultimate scene of Star Trek XI. When I was challenged in comments to the Untitled Wheelchair Sex Story I carefully explained that the 'kink' was just from the term 'kink meme' and I was writing a story set in a particular place and time that attempted to take all the salient features into account.

Now I wonder if I was being hopelessly naiive or worse. I wonder if the commentator went away from our interaction with the same feeling I've had where I've tried to explain to someone why, for example, a SGA AU where Teyla Emmagan is a maid and Ronon a servant and all the White canon characters had jobs comparable in status to their canon status could be problematic, and they carefully told me why there was no racism involved in that casting decision at all, and I sighed and gave up.

And yet... I really want to write about Pike directly after the main events of the movie, including writing slash and het about him then. (One of these days I'm going to write that Pike/Kirk/McCoy set the night before the last scene in the movie.) It would be a worse than inappropriate elision to pretend his persistent injuries don't exist. So how do I accurately depict him in that time period without producing fetish fuel?

I think about this for other issues, too. Frex, I think about skin color in fan productions, both as a reader and a writer. I kind of cringe when I see Star Trek fanart that portrays Uhura with pink skin; it's important to who she is, and to my conception of her, that she's a Black woman. It's important to who David Sinclair is, and to my interest in his character, that he's a Black man. Plus, there is visual drama in tone contrast, and visual drama is useful to evoke when writing. Maybe it's just that... another person who writes wise and useful meta said that people of color don't think about our skin colors, but for me that's not true. The shapes of my life being what they are, I think about my race and how it affects my interactions with people quite a bit, which includes considering my skin color. (It's hard not to think about one's skin color when one lives with a small person who delightedly reminds one that one is brown and he is pink.) And yet, by saying that, have I provided support to the next writer who'll write about Uhura thinking about her 'chocolatey skin' as if it's a weird strange deviation from 'normal', which will result in a cringeworthy and inaccurate tale?

This entry made more sense in my head before I wrote part of it while conversing with a four year old. Anyway. I think about these things a lot -- in the recent discussion over slash fic and its potential to harm gay men I thought and read a lot, though I didn't post publicly -- in part because I absolutely cannot dismiss mentions of these problems as "people choosing to be offended". I hate it when that comment is thrown at me and people like me for, for instance, pointing out problematic depictions of people of color, so I can't throw it at anyone else. I have to think about these issues and figure out how to do my best by everyone I might impact with my stories.

Now, how to do that?

Comments

[leftarrow.livejournal.com]

This is a placeholder comment because there are several complicated notes I'd like to make here, but I'm getting ready to rush out the door for the rest of the day, and this is absolutely not something I'm going to ramble about in a hurry.

*quick hug*

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

*quick hug back*

[igrockspock.livejournal.com]

I wish to speak up on behalf of a very close friend who is confined to a wheelchair and so incredibly frustrated by people's constant assumption that she has no sex life. What hurts her the most is the mistaken belief that she must be an unsatisfactory romantic partner for her husband, and that he makes a huge sacrifice in sexuality in order to be with her. That aside, sexuality is a part of her self-expression just like anyone else's, and it bothers her that people assume that part of her doesn't exist.

From her perspective, stories like the ones you describe are not fetishizing; they allow people with disabilities to be portrayed as sexual beings who can have uncomplicated, sexy fun just like everyone else. I am sure that some writers have approached the wheelchair as a fetish, but that doesn't mean that every story to feature a disabled person having sex does so. While I do appreciate the need to be sensitive in our portrayal of people who are different from us, I feel that far greater harm is done by silence. I cannot imagine that our world is better served by the continuing omission of disabled people from our fiction, and if we are to portray *anyone* as a whole person -- disabled or not -- that includes recognizing them as sexual people.

[igrockspock.livejournal.com]

oops...I totally did not mean for my comment to be a reply to yours...guess I hit the wrong button!

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

*blushes and hugs you tightly* Thank you. You deserve a much longer response than that to this gracious comment, but I didn't want to let the best be the enemy of the good.

*uses fetish icon*

[mtgat]

*hugs*

You know what we keep finding out over and over in all these situations: the first step to getting better about something is finding out there could be a problem.

I am at the stage in my writing where I know I am erring in the direction of not directly pointing out race and skin tone with canon and original characters. It's because I am still trying to sort out in my own headspace how to do so respectfully rather than either fetishizing or effectively shouting "Look! This is different! And thus not normal!" I almost think I ought to add that to my list of warnings at the front of the story: "penned by someone who is still dodgy on writing race without being an ass." *believes in complete warnings*

Re: *uses fetish icon*

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHA icon.

Seriously, though... It's because I am still trying to sort out in my own headspace how to do so respectfully rather than either fetishizing or effectively shouting "Look! This is different! And thus not normal!" Yeah. This is part of why I expanded the question, because, on this specific example I don't even know how to advise you; I know when I see it done well vs badly, thoughtfully vs unthought of, but I don't know how better to articulate that even when the little children aren't screaming.

In conclusion: *hugs you tightly* *runs to check on wee children*

[magickalmolly.livejournal.com]

I think there's a big difference between writing a story where person A has sex with person B, who happens to be in a wheel chair, and a story where person A has sex with person B because he's in a wheelchair. That, to me, is where the line is for the fetish. It's sad that some people will chose not see that line, but, well, some people just always need something to bitch about. Cynical, yes, and I apologize, but I've been in fandom too long to think otherwise.

More than anything, write what you love. You simply can't please everyone all of the time, and it's SO GOOD that you are aware of these issues and you want to tread lightly, but I worry that you hold yourself back for the sake of trying to make everyone happy always, which just isn't possible. Make yourself happy. Write what inspires you, and what you love, and write it for yourself. You deserve it.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I think there's a big difference between writing a story where person A has sex with person B, who happens to be in a wheel chair, and a story where person A has sex with person B because he's in a wheelchair. That, to me, is where the line is for the fetish.

Okay, that makes sense. I would say more, but small roommates are making big noise and it's a bit hard to think. But I wanted to hug you tightly and thankfully for this comment. *huggles*

[ninhursag.livejournal.com]

Hmm... I wish I had organized thoughts on this. I know I've read meta on the portrayal of characters of color and how what makes them unique can be erased by white writers because they(we) don't understand some essential elements of that experience. Ugh, I paraphrasing that badly, but whenever I read that I always go back over my own writing and cringe a little and wonder if that's exactly what I'm doing with Uhura.

I don't know that my characterization would be significantly different if she were supposed to be a highly competent white American woman and to some extent I can blame that on canon-- we're told she's African, but she doesn't really act like she's interacting with a foreign culture (side meta: that might actually say something scary about cultural homogeneity in the Trek verse), but I also have to blame that on me and what I bring to the table as a writer. Sometimes I wonder if what I bring isn't enough.

I wonder if it is the same for portraying characters with disability? I mean, I don't think anyone wants for characters with disabilities NOT to get written or not to get written as sexual creatures. But, maybe there's the feeling that an able bodied writer is missing something vital in the characterizations? But, on the other hand, if you focus too hard on the disability aspects, that's where you might risk falling into a fetishization trap, especially writing as an outsider.

Ugh, sorry for inflicting my disorganized thoughts on you. This is an extremely interesting topic to me but I always feel like I'm missing half of the underlying issues.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

No, no, these are the thoughts I need.

I paraphrasing that badly, but whenever I read that I always go back over my own writing and cringe a little and wonder if that's exactly what I'm doing with Uhura.

*nod* I hear you. If it helps, I love your Uhura.

we're told she's African, but she doesn't really act like she's interacting with a foreign culture (side meta: that might actually say something scary about cultural homogeneity in the Trek verse)

(Side meta: I envision that it does, I just haven't written about that much because it's scary indeed)They never have depicted her as such, have they? Chekov and Spock are the ones depicted as 'interacting with a foreign culture'. But I digress.

I mean, I don't think anyone wants for characters with disabilities NOT to get written or not to get written as sexual creatures. But, maybe there's the feeling that an able bodied writer is missing something vital in the characterizations? But, on the other hand, if you focus too hard on the disability aspects, that's where you might risk falling into a fetishization trap, especially writing as an outsider.

And this is exactly it. I guess all I can do in the end is carefully watch what I'm doing. And maybe get beta-read more often.

[lazar-grrl.livejournal.com]

I think that there's a difference between realistically portraying someone with a different physicality and fetishizing them. In the fetish, the primary focus is on the difference, the amputation, the scars, the wheelchair, and how that arouses the other character. In the realistic portrayal, the focus is on the person with the different physicality and depicting the whole of their character which, yes, happens to include the fact that they've got a whole mess of scars or are paralyzed from the waist down. In my opinion, "Blue Eyes Shine" is much more the latter (didn't read the first story; can't pass an opinion there). Pike's wheelchair is not the focus of the story, his character is, and it shows him having a (very) physical and effective relationship with someone without an undercurrent of "Oh, you poor cripple; here, have some pity sex." He is desired for himself, and part of that happens to include a wheelchair.

I once had a very short relationship with someone who fetishized my scars. It disturbed me because I felt like my skin was the only thing she cared about, and that I was more or less incidental. I don't see that in your work. Moreover, I think it sends a positive message that a person with a different physicality can have a very...productive relationship. Too often I think that a lot of society/media simply renders such people as sexless beings, like someone without a perfect body isn't going to want or be capable of having sex. Showing that, hey, everybody has a sex drive and you don't have to be perfect to enjoy it, is a good thing. In this once-fetishized chick's opinion.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I once had a very short relationship with someone who fetishized my scars. It disturbed me because I felt like my skin was the only thing she cared about, and that I was more or less incidental.

That had to be creepy as all hell, ergh. I've briefly dated a couple of people who wanted me just because I'm Black (one complained I didn't 'act Black', no less) and just remembering them makes my skin crawl. I really don't ever want to give anyone else that feeling.

I don't see that in your work. Thank you, a lot. I really... I want to write about people, the people who fascinate me, in all their vicissitudes. I want to do as well by them as I can.

[thnidu.livejournal.com]

These:

• lazar_grrl: I think that there's a difference between realistically portraying someone with a different physicality and fetishizing them.
  
• magickalmolly: I think there's a big difference between writing a story where person A has sex with person B, who happens to be in a wheel chair, and a story where person A has sex with person B because he's in a wheelchair.

In the recent hooraw in someone else's blog over the definition of "racism", which I mentioned to you off-LJ, one of the other participants said "Racism is not a matter of opinion, it is objective." IMO, that is massively wrong: it is impossible to make and apply an objective definition of racism. And I would say the same here.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I remember that fooferaw you told me about. :)

I dunno. There's objective racism and there's situational, conditional racism, Jim Crow laws vs why 'oh you're so articulate!' can be offensive. And so on. But I think I see your point, which is that there's no one gold standard for something like fiction, no directory of topics or phrases. There's being thoughtful and empathetic and trying one's hardest.

[boosette.livejournal.com]

I will eventually have something to say that's thoughtful and intelligent, but for now:

I also think there's something to be said for not desexualizing disabled characters because of their disability, and that that can be done without fetishizing the disability.

Not so much a "people choose to be offended" thing as a "peoples' lines are in different places and are offended by different things" thing.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

You are always thoughtful and intelligent, and notably so here. :)

[asimaiyat.livejournal.com]

That's a whole lot of interesting questions.

Since I know who you're talking about who wrote the meta (small world!), I have to ask if you've talked to her about it. In my experience she's a pretty easy person to talk to about this sort of thing, and that might help add some clarity.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Adventures in possessing a brain, I suppose. :)
(And I read your PM, too. *hugs you tightly* If it helps, I giggled, you know when.)

[merisunshine36.livejournal.com]

they carefully told me why there was no racism involved in that casting decision at all

I think that herein lies the difference between you and many others who have been called out for fetishizing or otherwise negatively portraying disenfranchised groups in fic. Whereas some have been quick to dismiss criticism, you have taken the steps to reflect thoughtfully on your writing and how it might be read from the perspective of a wheelchair user.

The only thing you can do should you continue writing Pike while he is in a wheelchair is to be mindful of your biases, and if criticism comes, be open to receiving and processing it. On the other hand, I agree with the commenters who say that you can't expect everyone to be pleased with your work. Only you can decide if you are comfortable with this. The beautiful and difficult thing about being human is that we each look at the world through a slightly different pair of lenses. It's entirely possible that if eight people who are disabled read "Blue Eyes Shine" that half could feel it is an accurate portrayal that resonates with them and half could be hurt by it--it all depends on how one's experience inform the way one processes the narrative. I know I have definitely had this experience with all the recent Avatar brouhaha--I assumed all my friends of color would agree with me that the film is racially insensitive, but many did not think this was the case.

Tangentially, before I wrote this I read all of the comments on 'Blue Eyes Shine', and noticed that they were universally positive. Now, I do not begrudge anyone their positive feedback, but I believe there are unfortunate side effects to (what I see as) fandom's collective tendency to discourage pointing out *any* flaws, -ism related or otherwise, in fanworks. Especially in the comments page (as opposed to PM/email). I wish we had an environment in which members of disenfranchised groups felt as if they would not be shot down should they choose to explain how a story does not jive with their experience. It shuts down a number of opportunities for learning, not only for the writer, but for the readers of the fic as well.

p.s. I realize I may have been derailing slightly with that last para, if you would like me to delete the comment/edit it just let me know and it's a done deal.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I try. :) I might as well attempt to think, I might manage it every so often.

You have an interesting point about feedback, but... I don't know. Pulling chunks of my heart out, polishing them, and sticking them up for public admiration can be difficult sometimes, and I've found that often people (including myself) can be defensive in public and receptive to PMs etc (this is not the first reaction I had to your observation, just the actually useful one). If something is really bad I will try to have the courage of my convictions and comment to that effect anyway, but in general I view the comments page as the place to say something good. (And I don't think this is derailing, since it's a related, overlapping issue.)

[sororcula.livejournal.com]

Haha, okay, I might end up looking like an asshat in this comment, but...

Although I have learned more about gender and race and disability and privilege issues than some people, I still know (and have internalized) a lot less than a lot of people (including you and a lot of your other commenters, I think.) And that's obviously all on me and something I need to work on, etc. ANYWAY. The reason I mentioned that is because I wanted to tell you that despite my already knowing SOMETHING about race issues, you are possibly the first/only person to actually make me sit up and pay attention to how I treat them in my writing. And I'm kind of ashamed of that, because I feel like I should've thought about it more clearly without having someone wake me up to it, but that's life.

Anyway, what I'm talking about is this comment (http://sororcula.livejournal.com/258399.html?thread=1447775#t1447775) you left me, where you told me I got it RIGHT. That comment meant a lot to me (which yours usually do, because you are, like, the master of gorgeous comments) and obviously I thanked you for it, but what I didn't tell you was that it was completely accidental that I got it right. But since then I have never ever forgotten that comment and I try to be more aware of potential exoticizing/othering language in the fics that I write.

Point being: to me, the best thing to do is obviously to do your best at being aware of other people's perspectives in the first place, but then also just to listen to them when they tell you how what you've written makes them feel. Haha, sorry, that's super simplistic, not some brilliant genius response. It's all I've got at the moment!

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

So, this was the comment where I stopped crying. Just so you know.

The reason I mentioned that is because I wanted to tell you that despite my already knowing SOMETHING about race issues, you are possibly the first/only person to actually make me sit up and pay attention to how I treat them in my writing. And I'm kind of ashamed of that, because I feel like I should've thought about it more clearly without having someone wake me up to it, but that's life.

*blush* Thank you for telling me this -- and I hear you. This entire entry came about because I said to myself, "self, there is an entire issue of abelism and fetishization here that you have heretofore not noticed! ACK!" So I half want to smack myself for not realizing before and half just have to go forward and try to do better.

And you earned that comment! Even if you weren't thinking in terms of social justice as reflected in fic, you were thinking in terms of writing as well as you could about complete human beings. Sometimes the two paths of thought end up surprisingly and wonderfully congruent (which is part of why it's infuriatingly inaccurate to set writing that is socially just aka 'politically correct' in some kind of opposition to good writing).

And, sometimes the most genius statements are the simplest. *beams at you*

[re-white.livejournal.com]

I think if you want to write it, you should write it.

You are one of a handful of people I've come across in fandom who is constantly asking themselves, "Is this hurtful?" and is always actively engaged in questioning your assumptions. I think that matters. I think that matters a lot. Some modes of fetishization are intentional, and some are internal and I don't believe your stories with Pike constitute either of those.

I just. There is so much I want to say here, I'm just not sure how. There are people out there who've fetishized Pike's disability, but you're not one of them.

Write it mindfully, write it with a care and an eye toward the ways in which you could fall into hurtful troupes, but don't not write.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

You are one of a handful of people I've come across in fandom who is constantly asking themselves, "Is this hurtful?" and is always actively engaged in questioning your assumptions. I think that matters. I think that matters a lot.

*takes a deep breath* Thank you. I try hard to do this, since I've only got one life so I might as well live mindfully, and also because I want others to do this, so the least I can do is do it myself.

And I don't think I can stop writing, so I might as well try to do my best.

[arcane_lark.livejournal.com]

I've been struggling with some similar issues lately-- I'm currently taking a class on Black Theater, and the professor has a habit of saying 'red flag' whenever anyone in the class (made up of three white men, two white women and a black woman) says something that is unconsciously inappropriate. It's absolutely fucking terrifying, to realize the little internalized things that even I, as someone who is aware of and participates in these sorts of dialogues, say on a regular basis.

The "am I fetishizing this or not?" question is a little simpler to me. If everything except the (disability/race/gender/take your pick) of the character is an afterthought, they're being fetishized, or at the very least turned into less of a person. If it is simply one part of that character, then it's less dangerous (thinking 'person of color' vs. 'colored person' is what I do, since one immediately unsettles me).

However, what I'm struggling with is the larger idea of "what is okay?" If I want to write a story where, say, Pike IS fetishized by another character because he is in a wheelchair, can I do that? Is it okay as long as I make it clear that the fetishization is an action taken by the character, and that I'm consciously exploring it as an author? Hell, I still haven't finished my km_anthology prompt because I'm struggling with how to maintain the characters' dignity and integrity.

I also think that it's less "people choosing to be offended" and more "people who have not examined the treatment of the issue at hand." It is quite a fine line between sensitive treatment and fetishization, and sometimes people don't look close enough. I am also much more critical of people messing up due to not giving a shit than people who are aware, took a risk, and missed the mark. Ignorance falls somewhere between the two.

This has been absurdly rambly, and probably not very coherent. I'm sorry.

[clickyraptor.livejournal.com]

I don't mean to start another thread in someone else's journal but I'm intrigued by your comment here.

When your professor says 'red flag' do you stop and talk about what the red flag is and why you said/thought it or are you just made to feel foolish/ashamed? (There have been a lot of posts relating to racism on ontd lately and the topic is sort of at the forefront on my mind I guess.)

It frustrates me a little that you're terrified of being called out because I don't think we should ever feel that way when we're talking about race/racism I think it's hard for a lot of people, myself included, to talk about race because I don't want someone telling me I'm racist or ignorant or my white privilege is showing should I say something 'unconsciously inappropriate'. I think it stifles discussion and causes knee jerk reactions and gets in the way of talking about issues like racism and then we don't get anywhere because people are too scared to say anything at all.

I'm not sure if this is making sense but I'd love to hear from you about both your class and racism.

tl;dr: Tell me more about your class!

[graceandfire.livejournal.com]

I think that you ask very thoughtful questions and that the questions provoke very thoughtful answers and discussions and I'm always grateful for that. As with your other question posts, I loved reading through the comments here and seeing the ones that just *pinged* on my radar, that had me nodding and saying 'Yes! That's exactly how I feel and I didn't even realize it.'

So, rather than try to re-articulate what several people have already said better than I ever could, let me just say...

1. It never even occurred to me when reading 'Blue Eyes Shine', and sex scenes in a few other fics where Pike was still in his wheelchair, that it was about a fetish. Because it never felt like Pike being in the wheelchair was the reason sex was occurring. Which leads me to point 2...

2. Pike is a sexy, sexy, sexy BAMF with his dry wit and air of authority and caring and his intelligence and his ability to shoot Romulans while being rescued and gravely injured. Who wouldn't want to hit that sleep with him, wheelchair or no wheelchair. If he was a real live person I would be blushing and trying to figure out how to say two words to him without making a fool of myself :)

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Thank you for #1 -- that was what I was going for, at least. (It's funny -- I did use the chair in one sense beyond 'that's where he happens to be', in that I used it to parallel the previous scene with George in the desk chair and Chris-later-Pike on his knees. Ah, Art.)

And, well, on #2 -- what can I say but 'yeah'? Pike was my first movieverse crush, and I put pretty people in his lap (Jim, Chekov, and Gaila at last count -- I should see who else I can put there) in part because I'd love to sit there myself. :)

[yeomanrand.livejournal.com]

I think about this stuff all the time.

One of the conversations shinychimera and I have, repeatedly, is how to describe Uhura. There's a character of color in our long unfinished piece, but you'd never know it because I think we're both afraid to try to describe her for fear of having fail. I worry about writing gay/bisexual men as a bisexual woman.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I hear you, and I'm really reassured that you hear me.

On describing your character -- I struggle with this, as I mentioned, but what has worked are single visual or tactile details. For instance:
"David asks conversationally, watching Liz's hand slide up his leg, glowing in contrast against his skin." <-- that's better than the previous example.

[rattyfleef.livejournal.com]

As a writer who worries about similar things, I've settled on the idea that it's better to write about people and fuck up than to call a class/type/subset/whatever of people off-limits, because all that leads to is under-representation and silence. You try, you fail, try again, fail better. Dudes in wheelchairs count too, yo. Moreover dudes in wheelchairs want to get laid! Except the asexual ones.

Everyone is people, and you're fantastic at treating each character as a distinct person *with* characteristic a/b/c, rather than Characteristic A in human form.

Perhaps I need more coffee?

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I've settled on the idea that it's better to write about people and fuck up than to call a class/type/subset/whatever of people off-limits, because all that leads to is under-representation and silence.

Oh, my God, yes. Yes, yes, yes. I have argued this in umpteen discussions of why it matters to have characters of color in genre fiction, and I try to live it as I write.

Everyone is people, and you're fantastic at treating each character as a distinct person *with* characteristic a/b/c, rather than Characteristic A in human form.


*blush* Thank you. I am going to work hard to keep deserving this compliment.

[sage]

What this makes me think of is what China calls "Kink Without Characterization", where characters are written wildly OOC for the sake of the kink. I deem it a weakness of writing, but other people defend it as just a little fun that never hurt anybody. Which I can't even address, so I won't. But I've read disability kink before outside of fandom, and it creeped me the HELL out. One was a 'fuck my stump' fic about a guy missing a hand and the girl who wanted to touch it. Another was a story about a guy who ran a social group for disabled people that was actually a dating pool for people with disability kink. The guy kept dumping girlfriends for progressively more seriously disabled people. I sort of wish it had turned into psychological horror and explored the cause of the guy's kink instead of closing with a "wow, you're really fucked up," and the POV-girl dropping him cold (although I really am glad she realized how dehumanized she was in his eyes and got out). But orig fic is different, since fanfic needs to live up to canon characterization.

The question is like...okay, one year "frottage" was on the kink and cliche challenge, and there was some discussion on how rubbing off could even COUNT as a kink, since it was viewed as a normal way for two guys to have sex, right? So it had to be specifically framed as a kink for it to seem unusual or not-normal. So, here, the question is whether Pike and Kirk are doing anything framed as not-normal. I mean, we don't see Jim licking the wheelchair (hoverchair?) or rubbing off on *it*.

Personally, I WANT disabled characters to get laid, too, and for things like range of motion, pain, ataxia, and sensation issues to be addressed in passing without fetishizing them -- although, granted, it does depend on who your POV character is and how willing the disabled character is to admit to pain, mobility trouble, etc.

For the flip side, I've read a minimal number of House fics, and I stopped when the writer showed totally no sense of how living with a cane actually works and when House's ability to have vigorous, athletic sex was totally unimpaired. Also, any time a disabled person stands there and waves their cane. If I wave my cane, I FALL OVER because it is not holding me up! /rant

So, yeah, complicated. But your Kirk and Pike do work for me -- especially because in my reading Kirk seems exactly as hot for Pike post-torture as he was pre-torture. AND because they're in a transient encounter. In a serious relationship, commitment to a disabled person bears a huge strain and the divorce rate is terrifyingly high. But that's about the whole relationship, not just the sex. And sex can be fine when everything else has gone to shit, so...*handwave*

[melissima.livejournal.com]

In a serious relationship, commitment to a disabled person bears a huge strain and the divorce rate is terrifyingly high.

May I ask whether this statement is based on an opinion or a statistic, and if it's a statistic, where it came from?

[melissima.livejournal.com]

This is a placeholder comment because I haven't read the fic in question yet.

That being said, \o/ for wheelchair porn!

Also, I offer myself as a beta and Subject Matter Expert for all time, in perpetuity, whenever you decide to write it. <3 I think I have sufficient experience and cred to be useful. :D

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Thank you, brighteyes. A *lot*. *hugs you tightly*

[impactbomb.livejournal.com]

This is something I come back to a lot (because there are several fandoms I love and want to write for where to do the canon justice/to properly expand on canon, some form of acknowledgment has to be present, otherwise IMHO it's just fucking insulting), and I think what magickalmolly said is what it really comes down to - it's the difference between writing a story about character A having sex with character B with character B happening to use a wheelchair and that being part of their life ... and writing a story about character A having sex with character B because character B uses a wheelchair and that being character B's defining character note.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

*nod* You're one of my favorite philosophers, so I was glad to get a comment from you on this, and this definetely makes sense.

I am contemplating, as I often say. (I made this post to help organize my thoughts and bring myself down from a freakout, and now I'm really glad I did, not least for all the splendidly thinky replies.)

[krytella.livejournal.com]

I think every single commenter so far has confirmed that from all our varying perspectives, your treatment of Pike as a wheelchair user having sex was well done and not problematic. That including the spectrum of human bodies and cultures and ethnicities sexually and respectfully in fic is not just okay, but important. So I want to take it a little farther.

Is it okay to fetishize? Is it ever okay to fetishize someone's membership in an oppressed group? Is it okay to fetishize one's own oppression? Someone else's?

These questions are really sticky. I see some strong voices out there who belong to oppressed groups speaking for their right to get sexual enjoyment out of fantasies around that oppression, especially historical oppression. For example, there are a lot of feminist women in BDSM who argue that using sexism in their role play is empowering. Just being a female who identifies as a submissive and a feminist can be boundary pushing, against feminists who believe BDSM and sometimes all straight sex inherently reinforces patriarchy. I'm also thinking of Mollena (http://www.mollena.com/), a Black female BDSM educator who gives workshops on race and kink, and talks openly about enjoying fantasies of racism and also about combating racism in "real life."

I can't give much of a personal take on that, because I'm a white woman and being denigrated for my gender is just not my kink. I do know lots of women IRL who kink on it, though, and thinking now I'm surprised I don't see more fanfic with themes of fantasy female disempowerment. That may be because I read mainly slash and het from people who are primarily slash writers.

I have been worrying about this from the other side recently. A lot. Am I "harming gay men" when I write slash? Is it okay as long as I try to portray characters and sexual situations realistically? What if it's some crazy version of male sexuality that has nothing to do with real gay men? Is that better, or is it actually worse? Like you, I like to think that I'm always striving for honesty when I write. I'm just not ready to throw other people under the bus for writing something that's more pure sexual fantasy than human reality. I don't want to be hurtful to people, or to misuse my privilege. I think a lot of these fantasies are problematic. They're formed very young by the cultures we grow up in. But I'm also scared of shutting down the debate, of shutting down our honestly weird unrealistic human kinks, of continuing to elide our (mostly) female, often queer sexuality as it has been alternately minimized and feared throughout history.

We do recognize some space for offensive fantasy in common fan culture already. There are norms around posting and properly warning for stories with sexual violence. Some of these stories show sexual abuse as a challenge for characters to overcome, and some eroticize it. There are dark parts of our psyches we can go to with rape and abuse fantasies. Some people still find them problematic. Some people avoid reading them but accept they're there. And I'm sure some people are hurt enough by knowing these stories are out there that they are campaigning against them. I still think the community feeling is to live and let live, as long as everyone is warning enough to protect others from being triggered.

...

[krytella.livejournal.com]

(con't)

Should we be okay with the fetishization of other kinds of abuse and oppression as long as it's made clear? I think that would at least be better than the alternative. Starting a story with the header, "This is a fucked up dark fantasy that would absolutely not be hot or okay in real life" would at least be better than posting the same story without the disclaimer, right? I've seen stories with fetishization of odd things that were presented the same way as realistic stories, and it did bother me. But maybe that's just the fact that those things weren't my kink. I've seen bizarrely non-canonical stories about male characters far removed from current Western culture with eating disorders or cutting. I really can't get through the absurdity to read them, but I'd bet the authors are people who have struggled with these experiences in their own lives and are writing about them or fetishizing them as their own form of processing.

There may be more later, but I have probably already raised enough issues and been unconsciously privileged and offensive enough for one day. People, please call me out if you think so -- I want to learn from this!

[anruiukimi.livejournal.com]

I have nothing new to add, but I found reading the varying points of view and prospectives interesting and insightful, to say the least. Everything I have read of yours has been utterly respectful and amazing, and I am sure it is because you are well aware of the issues raised. :)

Thank you for starting this brilliant discussion!

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

*curtseys* Thank you, a lot. I'm going to keep working to deserve the lovely compliment you've paid me here.

*huggles you*