"Mary Sue as Feminist Icon" ; a Meta Rec

[browngirl]

So, some of you have heard me rant about my problems with the concept of Mary Sue. I've seen it applied to just about any female canon character with any agency, brought forward as support for the postulate that OFCs are never worth reading, and generally used as a damper on writing about female characters by female authors. Not least since I've seen people use the gender of the term as evidence that women write more self-insert characters and therefore write less well than men do, I've sometimes contemplated making a post about the antifeminist implications of the term "Mary Sue" in its current usage. But, put bluntly, I tend to lose my nerve, decide I'd just produce a firestorm, and not write it.

fairestcat has written the essay I've been dreaming of, and hers reaches further than mine would have and is better than mine would have been. "Mary Sue is the woman who asks for and gets everything she wants," Fairestcat says, and I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly.

I don't see fairestcat's point as being that bad writing should be excused and not improved upon (as many of the responders have charged her with), but that Mary Sues are presented as the nadir of writing, when there are really many other and many worse ways to write badly, and that some of the reasons for the particular infamy with which Mary Sues are regarded are societal rather than artistic. That's my take on it, anyway.

Comments

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

but the definition of Mary Sue that I like is when the OFC comes into Our Fannish Characters' story and usurps that story

I think this is a good way of stating the useful definition. I've found the original definition of the Mary Sue *really useful* in discussing fiction. (Although I do try to de-stress the gender, because so many people seem to think it's *worse* for a female character to do these things than a male one.) It's the expansion of the term to mean, "any non-evil female character with any agency" which gets me riled, you know?

I think our horror of being accused of writing Mary Sues keeps us sometimes from writing OFCs

*nod* I think so too, and I think that's a damn shame.

*huggles you back*

[sockich.livejournal.com]

I have a problem with "Mary Sues" when they're badly written characters in a badly written story, because they are badly written characters in a badly written story.

I have more of a problem with people who label every competent female character (canon or OFC) as a "Mary Sue". Fuck that shit, if that were the rule then about 95% of all male canon characters are "Gary Stus" and yet, for some reason, you never hear that.

Thanks for the link, it looks like a very interesting read.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

*nod* Exactly. Bad writing can be done in gendered ways, but it's not a gendered trait.

[gloss]

some of the reasons for the particular infamy with which Mary Sues are regarded are societal rather than artistic
That was the argument on an article about Mary Sues published in Bitch about a year ago and I can only agree vehemently.

That said, I *didn't* get the same reading from this post as you did; it left me wondering (as I have been *a lot* recently) about where I fit in terms of fannish feminism. And I found some of the criticism of dissenters, particularly kyuuketsukirui, hard to take.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I really should subscribe to Bitch already, shouldn't I? :)

That said, I *didn't* get the same reading from this post as you did; it left me wondering (as I have been *a lot* recently) about where I fit in terms of fannish feminism.

I've been thinking about fannish feminism too, and other fannish ideas; I find myself thinking of the analogy of the helicopter as described by my uncle the Navy mechanic, "a whole bunch of parts flying in close formation".

Are you referring to the, um, *tries to pick a diplomatic word* discussion she and Commodorified (IIRC) had? Yeah, that got heated. In general, though, I dunno. I may be biased, because this is how I felt, but I saw a lot of relief in the comments, a lot of "finally someone said this!"

[gardnerhill.livejournal.com]

Men don't write Mary Sue? BS. Men's Mary Sues get more respect because they're men written by men. (Also, men's Mary Sues make more money, making them more respectable.)

Robert Heinlein's Mary Sues all tend to be The Wise Old Guy -- the 500-year-old know-it-all (born the same year as Heinlein, usuallywho expounds for chapters on Heinlein's politics and social philosophies. Never ever EVER wrong. Admired by men, desired by women.

Gene WESLEY Roddenberry's Mary Sue is Wesley Crusher - the perfect little boy genius who saves the ship every episode.

George Lucas had two -- LUCAS and Anakin Skywalker (and a dreadful Mary Sue film, "Phantom Menace," gets lionized by the same fanboys who dismiss female Mary Sue fandom).

And tell ME Mack Bolan's super-commando dudes aren't Mary Sues with Uzis.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

If I nod any harder my head might fall off. :) Seriously, so much word.

[aquila0212.livejournal.com]

You know, I honestly don't see the difference between Mary Sue and slash. When we write any sort of fantasy piece, we insert ourselves, whether we're portraying ourselves with our name (or another female name) or as ____ (fill in the blank) male character. And to tell the truth, I've seen bad, syrupy slash that's every bit as awful as bad syrupy het, and from the very same people who say they hate het. *shakes her head*

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

And to tell the truth, I've seen bad, syrupy slash that's every bit as awful as bad syrupy het, and from the very same people who say they hate het.

*nod* So have I, and it's so annoying.

[aquila0212.livejournal.com]

In fact -- I have to share this with you -- one of these people from my fandom recently posted a comment on someone else's writing and said something to the effect of, "My one nitpick with you is that you didn't warn about hetero content -- it squicks me something awful." This from the very same writer who wrote a fic about two men getting married that was almost made me throw up in my mouth, it was so disgustingly fluffy.

[lame-pegasus.livejournal.com]

You know, I have a rather sober opinion about Mary Sues - a Mary Sue is any poorly written character in any fandom who was made up to give the author an alter ego enabling her to participate in her favorite universe and to be loved by all the hot guys. *weak smile*

The real problem in fanfiction (especially in the LOTR-universe) in my (very personal opinion) is the wide-spread inability of female writers to cherish the female characters that are already THERE (instead of doing the usual lame and vicious Arwen and Rosie-bashing, for example), and the obvious wish to ignore them for the sake of any slash pairing available or thinkable (however ridiculous).

It is possible to write strong women in this fandom, those who are already there and those you have to create first. You proved it, more than once, same as writers like Mary Borsellino, Jodancingtree or KhazarKhum. To celebrate Mary Sues as the embodiment of feminist power feels... well... just a little weird for me (though it is certainly an interesting thesis...).

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

*grin* Now I have to stop blushing long enough to answer.

To celebrate Mary Sues as the embodiment of feminist power feels... well... just a little weird for me (though it is certainly an interesting thesis...).

I think the point of calling Mary Sue a feminist icon wasn't to say that writers, or women, should aspire to be Mary Sues, but that many of the sins of the Mary Sue are perhaps not sins at all, but things women should be allowed as well as men. As long as these come with good writing. :)

[brownbetty]

It's a pretty valid point, and as someone who has to work harder to like a female character than to like a male one, I do wonder how much of this is sort of pervasive background misogyny, like smog breathed in until it's part of us.

And yet my kneejerk reaction to the Sue remains. The best I can do is be aware of it, and try not to spew anything vile publicly.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Well, bad writing is still writing, and if one can see the author's hand stacking the story's deck, that's bad writing. It's just that it's bad no matter the gender of the characters involved. (WHich I know you know.)

The smog metaphor is totally awesome, and I wish I'd thought of it.

[temima.livejournal.com]

"Mary Sue is the woman who asks for and gets everything she wants"

This is my utterly knee-jerk comments after reading your post. Once I was chatting with a fannish person on the friends list, and we decided that Mary Sues tend not to do anything like bring peace in the Middle East or cure cancer. Whatever great and wonderful traits are used for getting into canon character's pants/getting canon characters together. So, I really do not see that sort of OFC as a feminist model.

I don't think that is character that fairestcat sees being called a Mary Sue, however. Perfectly perfect male characters (whether original or 'just visiting') are given far more slack by some fans than female characters who happen to be bright, pretty, or mooning over someone. Maybe a gender neutral term for annoying and shallow original characters in other fandoms would be better, but I know it is not enough.

I could rant about 'feminine = bad' and 'make things look bad by comparing them to girly things' making me call myself a feminist and not just an egalitarian. However, I don't want to hijack your journal.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Perfectly perfect male characters (whether original or 'just visiting') are given far more slack by some fans than female characters who happen to be bright, pretty, or mooning over someone. Maybe a gender neutral term for annoying and shallow original characters in other fandoms would be better, but I know it is not enough.

*nod* This, really, I think.

And I often agree with and always learn from your rants, FWIW.

[pulpgeek.livejournal.com]

I must humbly disagree. The core problem is not so much that Mary Sues are unfairly maligned as that the term itself has lost (almost) all meaning. Mary Sue has become shorthand for 'any character I dislike' so a LOT of interesting, well-developed characters are lumped in there.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Mary Sue has become shorthand for 'any character I dislike' so a LOT of interesting, well-developed characters are lumped in there.

With which I agree, actually.

But I do also think that people are harder on Mary Sue than on 'Gary Stu', because of the idea that women aren't supposed to want and/or have that sort of central place and power the way men should. Mary Sue is maligned more than her male equivalent, and I think that is unfair.

[vass]

some of the reasons for the particular infamy with which Mary Sues are regarded are societal rather than artistic.

Oh gosh yes.

What Mary Sue would be, if I ruled the world: a useful description of one particular type of bad writing, i.e. when a character (original or not, female or not) is so special that the rules of story don't apply to her.

e.g. Harry Potter defeated Voldemort as a baby, when adult wizards couldn't, but it later turns out that his mother gave her life for his - it wasn't because he's a really powerful wizard. The Sorting Hat tells him that he has attributes from all four houses, but does not sort him into all four, or create a special house just for him; it sorts him into one house, taking into account his choices, wishes, and actions.

Or... if Robin died, and Batman was distraught and making mistakes, and suddenly this new character shows up, and he's found out their identities all by himself, and he tries to persuade Nightwing into becoming Robin again, then dresses up in the Robin suit and saves Nightwing and Batman, despite having never done vigilante stuff before... he would be a Mary Sue. Subsequent writing, from writers and fans, has fanwanked more balance and depth into Tim, thank Gods.

But since I don't rule the world, the term has expanded from its original use (lucky Ensign Mary Sue who gets Kirk (or Spock) to tell her he loves him, when he's never said that to a woman before) to women who dare to get their own plotlines. Or even women who dare to appear onscreen.

And there's this other thing: teenage fangirls as audience. For anything. At all. I believe this is less true in Japan. But in the Western world, there's this sense of "go away back to reading Sweet Valley High, it's all you deserve." Like teenage girls shouldn't get fantastic (or SFnal, or horrific) fiction about their demographic. Like they're *not* a demographic, or not at all a desirable one. Like Raven (a character many teenage girls like) is everything that's wrong with the animated Teen Titans.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

I could write you 500 words which would all boil down to "I so agree, and I love the way you think." So I'll just say that. :)