browngirl

I need a city icon.

Title: Beneath Us, Constellations: Ten Things that Happened in Another Gotham
Fandom: DC Comics AU
Rating: As it is: N/A As it would have been: NC-17
Pairing: Batfamily except Batman himself
Features a scene written by

brown_betty and consists of a long conversation with her,

petronelle, and

maelithil. Posted with thanks to them.
Title From: http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/1801.html
Flying at Night
Above us, stars. Beneath us, constellations.
-- Ted Kooser

rubynye : awwwwwww.

rubynye : Dick the Irresistable.

rubynye : I'm tempted to write Dick the Sexy Supervillain now.

petronelle : of course he is. besides which Bruce is totally not estimating how much he's gotten himself addicted.

petronelle : Hee!

petronelle : I still want Evil Nightwing v. Oracle.

rubynye : Bruce doesn't want to *know* how addicted he is.

rubynye : God. That's a thought.... but, no.

petronelle : aw.

petronelle : I like the idea of Oracle's terrible weakness for him, myself.

rubynye : Even though.... both of them using manipulated operatives against each other. And having a male "femme fatale". and.... no, no, no! I shouldn't!

petronelle : Hee.

petronelle : God.

petronelle : Tim with a thing for EvilNightwing.

petronelle : Alvin!

petronelle : Alvin and Cass and Steph.

rubynye : Nightwing trying to seduce Tim from Oracle.

petronelle : *squeaks*

petronelle : I just had the creepiest Steph/Dick thought ever.

rubynye : Seemingly recruiting Alvin, who thinks he's double-agenting, but who has his real allegiance?

petronelle : Which isn't hard, as there are not many of them.

rubynye : Cass and Steph as a miniature Hope and Mercy!

petronelle : But EvilSteph -- mmm.

rubynye : ooo, what is is?

petronelle : Just -- Arthur's adored crime princess-daughter Steph and EvilNightwing.

rubynye : Oh BABY.

petronelle : I'm not sure who Alvin would belong to.

petronelle : He might be Tim to Oracle.

rubynye : Is Alvin?

rubynye : (rather, is Tim?)

petronelle : But he'd have a hell of a time figuring out who he really supported.

rubynye : Man. I'm writing this down.

petronelle : I think Tim is Oracle's and Alvin is Nightwing's and -- damn.

petronelle : Poor Tim.

rubynye : I love Tim. so I love torturing him.

petronelle : Cass would drag Alvin in by his ear, all silent and scary, and introduce him to the boss.

petronelle : But Babs *loves* Dick.

rubynye : I wonder what would turn Dick bad, and how bad would he be?

petronelle : Perhaps there's no Bruce.

rubynye: I mean, there are different levels of bad. 000000!

rubynye : Oooooh!

petronelle : GA's world without a Batman has a petty-evil Dick.

petronelle : But -- hmm.

petronelle : He could have been taken in by Zucco instead. Raised to be a good member of La Cosa Nostra.

petronelle : Helena. Oh Helena.

rubynye : Helena would be trying to be what Bruce became, in that case.

petronelle: Hmm. Yes.

rubynye: This AU would rule. from orbit.

petronelle : Helena would be so in love with Babs.

rubynye: Dick the charmingest charming mob bastard ever.

petronelle : Yes.

petronelle: He could easily get Cass during NML. He'd just have to find her before Oracle did.

petronelle: He probably stops by the Clocktower every now and then and seduces her.

petronelle: (Oracle, not Cass)

rubynye : Hey! a Climbing Through Windows story!

petronelle : So it is.

petronelle : Or he could flirt from afar, but it would give her less of a weakness.

rubynye : Oh, no. He climbs through her window every so often. So must it be.

rubynye : And Cass and Steph. the mini Hope and Mercy. I can't even think of plots for them. my brain just shorts out with joy.

petronelle : Hee.

petronelle : They'd be beautifully deadly.

petronelle : This Cass *totally* took out Shiva.

petronelle : And Cain.

rubynye : She'd have no reason not to have.

petronelle : I think Tim-Alvin's horror of himself and his wacky detachment-attachment is quite compelling.

petronelle : He'd be furious when he found out Oracle had sex with Nightwing.

petronelle : But he couldn't say anything at all because he did too, as part of his cover.

rubynye : Furious in that way one gets at things--- heh. I was just about to say, furious at the sins one commits oneself.

petronelle : Yes.

rubynye : I wonder what happens because of that fury. When Tim gets mad he tends to do stuff about himself, not so much about others, if you see what I mean (was rereading Robin issues today)

petronelle : Hmm. True.

rubynye : So he might quit, or he might try to quit and she ruthlessly points out he hasn't a leg to starnd on.

rubynye : I need a bigger keyboard. or smaller fingers.

petronelle : heh.

rubynye : hmmm.

rubynye: I think I'd have to figure out here what Dick was trying to do that Babs wanted to stop him from doing. And if Dick had a cheerful, brutal enforcer named Todd in his employ.

petronelle: oh jesus.

petronelle: I want that so badly I can *taste* it.

petronelle: Jason cracking his knuckles and getting ready to put a serious hurt on -- someone.

petronelle: I bet Gotham with a crime boss would be somewhat civilized, too.

petronelle: Because -- well. It wouldn't be *good,* and it would be hideously corrupt, but it might move more smoothly than it presently does.

petronelle: Couldn't get the Commish on the take if it was Gordon, but he might be dead, too.

rubynye: He'd be dead. He'd so be dead.

rubynye : That would be part of Babs' motivation---

rubynye: *writes down the Evil Nightwing AU*

petronelle: Whee.

rubynye: (the sad thing is, Dick would be pretty happy)

petronelle: He probably would. All he needs is family.

and then:

brown_betty: You've been doing the dark mirror AU thing, lately, haven't you?

rubynye: hi again, and what do you mean by that?

rubynye: (confused q)

brown_betty: Oh, Petra was saying you guys were developing some kind of Dick-is-evil au?

rubynye: Oh! *laugh*

brown_betty: And then, there's your Owlman thing, which rocked my world. So.

rubynye: We were audiencing for each other (which I love, because I get the better end of the deal) and she had Bruce thinking basically "I'm glad Dick's powerful charm is on the side of good" and I said "what would evil Dick be like?" and we started postulating a Gotham without Bruce Wayne.

rubynye: after all, one more bullet from Joe Chill...

brown_betty: Heee! Awesome!

rubynye: *blush* thank you :-)

brown_betty: So the seductive type villain, not so much Crutches.

rubynye: The only problem is, whenever I contemplate Evil Cass and Evil Steph as miniature Hope and Mercy, my brain shorts out with joy.

rubynye: Maybe I'l write it for Petra's birthday.

brown_betty: I oh... so much! Cass in something slinky and vaguely bondage-y, and Steph in a mini skirt because she has a very nice posterier, and they are violent and sexy.

rubynye: ajpgufgUAQVFC

rubynye: *pours cold water on head*

rubynye: OK, I think I can think again.

brown_betty : And woa0934hklkl@ V$JI threesomes with Dick, (Because they are his hench-girls, right?) and they call him Boss.

rubynye: Dammit. I think I just broke something.

rubynye : They are so his henchgirls.

rubynye : (Hence the Hope and Mercy comparison)

rubynye: Oh MAN.

rubynye : So we also postulated:

brown_betty : Steph rolls down her tube top and pulls Cass's hand around front. "Wanna join, or watch, boss?"

rubynye : Jason the happy thug enforcer

rubynye : !

brown_betty : Oh JASON LOVE

rubynye : You're trying to see how my typing degrades as my neurons fry.

rubynye: Tim the double agent, or rather, Tim Oracle's agent and Alvin Draper who works for/slept with Dick.

rubynye: And Helena the closest thing this Gotham has to a Batman.

brown_betty: Ngn. And. Oh! Oh!1

brown_betty: And ORacle works with her?

rubynye: Yes. *closely*.

brown_betty: YESSSSSS

rubynye: Canary! We have to fit Canary!

brown_betty: Well. I'm trying to remember what I know of her backstory, to figure out if no Batman would change it.

brown_betty : Did O ever get shot?

rubynye : Yes, I figure so.

rubynye : Since the Joker shot her to get at her father.

rubynye : Who is currently dead but that could be recent.

rubynye : (am I awful that I like Oracle better than the first Batgirl?)

brown_betty : The hospital bed is too hard, what she can feel of it, and she finds she can get her brain to stop telling her that she has no reason to live for longer and longer periods at a time. She has the brief urge to rip out the IV and scream until someone comes. She doesn't.

A man slips in the door, a police officer. "Miss Gordon?" he asks.

"Tell him I'm fine." She belatedly remembers things like courtesy, and says, "thank you."

"Yeah, I'm sure you will be." He opens up the Gym bag at his hip. "LIsten, I wanted to apologize. It's my city, and things like that shouldn't happen."

Barbara suddenly realizes that she's... completely helpless. She could push the nurse button, but he'd just kill her too. It's him. The tray is on wheels, and she shoves it at him as hard as she can.

He grins, and catches it with one hand. It barely rocked. "I like you, Miss Gordon. I wanted you to know I take this seriously." And then he pulls something out of his bag, and for a moment she thinks it's another bouquet, and what a ridiculous thing for a mob boss to--

It's a severed head, with a shock of green hair.

rubynye : da/ f

rubynye : mdzdmkdrtgkzjfgl;ar;esls

rubynye : Want me to just send you the chatlog?

brown_betty: Okay!

rubynye : Because that there is more splendid and awful and awesome than anything I was thinking of.

rubynye : *dances around happily*

rubynye : OMG you rule rule rule from orbit orbit orbit.

rubynye : Because!

rubynye : Joker shoots the Gordons (shoots Jim after he refuses to break, and kills him). Grayson gives Babs this present, and some weeks/months later starts climbing through her window. Meanwhile, she'd had Tim investigating Grayson as Alvin Draper.

rubynye : As Alvin he meets Todd and Steph and Cass.

rubynye : He gets pissed at Babs for the window-climbing affair and quits the whole game, at least temporarily.

rubynye: that's half the story right there, and a big chunk of the other half is his getting dragged back in.

brown_betty : Oh! This could be how I do plot but omg it's so beutiful and huge and sprawling, I think I'd need to diagram it. Looking at it, yeah, Gordon wouldh have to be dead. Dick recruits Steph because she was working as an enforcer for Arthur, but he flipped out when he found out she was getting it on with Cass, because I have just made him a homophobe, and Dick told her he'd take her in. Cass goes where Steph goes.

rubynye : That all makes perfect sense (we never see any reason for him not to be a homophobe)

brown_betty : Or... yeah, something. I'm not sure I buy cass as a murderer. I don't think her objections are moral, so much as that the way her mojo works, (reading body language) it's actually traumatic for her to kill. But maybe not.

rubynye So she beats the earthly crap out of folks.

rubynye : .... not that different from current Cass....

rubynye : ....or maybe she learns how not to "watch" people die.

brown_betty : Dick: Meet Cassandra. She's endlessy adaptive. You may have heard she doesn't kill. This is true. You'll wish it wasn't.

rubynye : ooo baby!

brown_betty : Does Dick go by Mr. Grayson, or have some kind of handle?

rubynye : Hmmm.

rubynye : I think he goes by Mr. Grayson.

brown_betty : Wears expensive suits.

brown_betty: He was fostered by Zucco?

rubynye : Oh yes. oh baby yes.

brown_betty : So, he came up through the ranks as an enforcer. Now he tries to cover up the fact that he never finished grade nine.

rubynye : This gets better and better.

rubynye : And it's really kind of wonderfully sad how much happier he probably is.

brown_betty : I think he killed Zucco, because he couldn't stand his incompetance. Who did he lose his virginity with?

brown_betty : Or to?

rubynye: You don't want to know my first reply to that. *shakes head at self*

brown_betty : Maybe Helena!

brown_betty : She's in a crime family, they might have met.

rubynye : I doubt he was a virgin anywhere near when he was old enough for her.

rubynye: this is kind of a rough life we've mapped out for him.

brown_betty : ...true.

brown_betty : Probably lost his virginity far too young in a sordid manner.

brown_betty : He got his start as a drug mule for Zucco.

brown_betty : He seduced Helena when she was vulnerable, trying to get an in with her uncle, and she's never forgiven him.

rubynye : Now that works, terrifyingly well.

rubynye : I think this is going to rule.

brown_betty : Oh, man. I want it to. It's an idea that deserves too. I think I'll plot it on 3X5 cards. See if I can get everything straight.

rubynye : *grins at you*

rubynye : I offer encouragement, cards, and candy :D

brown_betty : I think this idea will get better the longer I can wait before writing it.

brown_betty: I sat on Heart, Humble for about two months, and then wrote it in a weekend.

rubynye : I know what you mean.

rubynye : One of my favorite LOTR fics, I sat on for nearly a year, and wrote in a weekend.

brown_betty: It's like, once you start writing, it's development stops. Or something.

brown_betty : I mean, not exactly, but sort of.

rubynye: I really look forward to seeing what you do with this.

brown_betty : So, now that we've poked at Nye's Evil Bruce, will you poke at the Evil Dick? (I think we should say "evil dick" as much as possible.)

rubynye : *cackle*

rubynye : I was just about to bring up Evil Dick. :D

rubynye : I told Mael about it over lunch. at least, I hope I did adequately. Lessee.

rubynye : On the Side of Good:

brown_betty : It's funnier if we say, "I think the evil dick is about to come up."

rubynye : The Birds of Prey. Oracle, Huntress, Canary. Oracle's protege Tim Drake.

brown_betty : (If you're twelve. Like me)

rubynye : On the side of Gorgeously Evil *snerk* *pauses to giggle a LOT*

maelithil : I told you, Dick side OWNZ their asses

rubynye : ahem Dick Grayson, charmingest bad guy ever, Jason Todd, cheerful enforcer, Steph and Cass being Hope and Mercy, and, oh, ALL OF GOTHAM.

rubynye: And Alvin Draper Dick's new protege.

brown_betty: (you have to say *evil* dick. Okay. I'll stop now.)

rubynye: Have I left anyone out?

rubynye: Evil Dick!

brown_betty: Not sure.

maelithil: EVIL DICK'S AWESOME

maelithil: so, care to tell me why he became evil dick?

brown_betty: I've been thinking. First, Bruce gets shot, that means Harvey's dead, right?

rubynye : Mael: Betty's awesome. lemme find what she wrote:

maelithil : gotham's home for boys not work out all too well?

brown_betty: (Joe Chill decided that living witnesses might, actually, be dumb)

brown_betty: And it means Catwoman never wears a uniform. I'm trying to decide. Does she become a madame? A courtesan? A druggie? A nun?

maelithil : nun!

maelithil: err, no, I kid

rubynye : A madame or courtesan. I love her too much to see her be a druggie or a nun.

maelithil: i love the idea in Nine Lives, where she's a high class prostitute

rubynye: Mael: check the other window.

brown_betty : I think so. I like high class prostitute too. PLaying both sides. ...I suddenly want her to be Dinah's girlfriend. But that's because I'm on crack.

rubynye: I thought Dinah and Helena were competing for Babs' love?

rubynye: Mael: is that not worthy of keyboard mashing?

maelithil : if harvey were around she could be his girlfriend

brown_betty : Dinah is pining for Babs but has a thing going with Selina. She tells herself it's not serious because Selina is a working girl.

brown_betty : Helena's relationship with Babs is the least changed, except that Babs no longer has the upper hand, or at least, not always.

brown_betty: I kind of think part of the twistedness could come from Dick being all, "I run this place like a business. "

brown_betty: So mostly people don't get killed, although, you know, maybe completely by accident they get shanked in prison but no one can ever prove it. But Helena just puts a bolt in anyone she doesn't like much.

brown_betty: Less a Gotham of violence, than one of corruption.

rubynye: Man. *wibbles in awe*

brown_betty: Remember, *Dick* is evil. He doesn't love violence as much as say Jason, or even Bruce.

rubynye: *nod*

brown_betty: So Dick really does own half the city councilmen, and every prostitute pays him union dues, but it's frighteningly tidy.

maelithil: I mean, look at Dick the mafia guy in recent issues

rubynye: He's probably... cheerfully amoral. God. I'm having a hard time hating him.

brown_betty: Not to say painless. Sometimes, people have to be made examples of.

maelithil : he's *mean* when he has to

maelithil : I can0t hate him, ever!

brown_betty: So. Still in the picture:Ivy, because her origin is independent of BruceJoker, dittouh...

maelithil: rom culture, INTERESTING

rubynye : Penguin's a skeevy business partner. The girls hate him.

maelithil: (they find dick's relatives? small time crooks?)

rubynye: (Dick's girls, I mean)

brown_betty: I think Alfred is personally overseeing the Wayne Foundation's money, and living with Leslie and trying desperatly to do something good for the city,

brown_betty: and has a whole hoard of children at the youth centre who are protective of him in that macho way.

brown_betty: And at one point, Alfred discover's Babs, and has a whole crisis of conscience over whether he should get involved.

brown_betty: Dick's relatives?

maelithil: I'm thinking of how to turn sweet dickie into a criminal

maelithil: 'cos I can see it happen way too easily, actually

brown_betty : OH, I was just thinking Dick might have held on to Rom culture if he was fostered by Zucco. So obviously better than the culture he was surrounded by. Rom are better than this! We don't do these things! This isn't our way!

rubynye : Shades of Kyle/Nighthawk.

brown_betty : So at first, Zucco just nabs him because he's a witness. He bribes foster care and gets him handed over to him. And then he pretty much ignores him, gives him to a goon.

brown_betty : And Dick gets abused and and beaten up, and runs wild, and gets an education.

brown_betty : But really soon, Zucco sees him again and wants him for a drug courrier, and after that, he's on his way up omg too big for bufffer ack!

rubynye : There's a whole thing that happens to people who are very much trying to hang onto a culture they lost/nearly lost as children.

rubynye : eep?

maelithil : but, why not kill him?

brown_betty : Oh! But I left out that Dick's plan from the very beginning is to get big enough to kill Zucco.

maelithil : I mean, Zucco re: Dick

brown_betty : Damn! Fatal flaw! Unh, Dick's too purty?

brown_betty : He's not sure if Dick saw anything or not?

rubynye: Dick too pretty/ Zucco thinks he's a useful liutenant and doesn't comprehend the danger from him/evil overlordiness

maelithil: in canon he's pretty sure Dick saw

maelithil : that's why he0s looking for him in the first place

maelithil : or, other version, he doesn't think they'll believe the kid, which of course means that he wouldn't bother drawing attention to himself by bribing foster care

brown_betty: Yeah, Dick needs to be a very distant threat.

maelithil : uhm, s'it need to be with zucco?

maelithil : I mean, I can see Dick swearing he'll kill zucco regardless

maelithil : and I can see him focusing on that for much of his childhood

rubynye : you think someone else picked up the pretty orphan?

brown_betty : Wee Dicky is so traumatized he won't speak. Social worker says, "oh dear, how terrible, but perhaps with time!" Zucco says, "I know a loving familly that will give him a caring home!"

brown_betty : Well, I'd like him to be raised among criminals, ideally.

brown_betty : But he could run away from the orphanage and end up with them anyway. Same deal.

brown_betty : And zucco's unlikely to recognize the kid.

maelithil: considering the atmosphere in the foster home he got stuck in in one version? I'd say growing up among criminals is a given
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/maelic/Robin-Annual4-09.jpg

maelithil has left the chat room.

brown_betty : Yeah. But I'd like to establish his pattern of infiltration and betrayal early. Dick wants Zucco to *trust* him before he kills him.

brown_betty: I mean, he's a charming bastard.

brown_betty : Oh! Anarchy! Lonny... Machin, right? He could be there too. But I'm trying to cut down on costumes. Oracle could recruit him!

brown_betty : I mean, in a really wretched Gotham, socialism would seem much less attractive.

rubynye: And he and Tim HATE each other. that'd be awesome.

brown_betty : Hee! Are always competing for O's attention! And Lonny suspects Tim of conflicting loyalties.

brown_betty : (half of this stuff is never going to get in)

brown_betty : You know, I never thought it'd happen, but I'm honestly less sure of Tim's part than anyone else's.

brown_betty : Usually I'm writing, like, Kori'ander/flower and thinking, hmm, this could use a little Tim.

brown_betty : But here...

brown_betty : Not quite sure.

brown_betty : Like he sees Dick at the circus, right?

rubynye: Oh, but Tim has to be in there. for the double agent fun if nothing else.

brown_betty : Then what?

brown_betty : Does he obsess? Because he's likely to never see Dick again.

brown_betty : Certainly not on TV doing flips.

rubynye: I have a vague idea that a large part of the plot turns on Tim's conflicted loyalties. Oh, I could see him obsessing over that one night for *years*. He could still obsess even if he didn't get to stalk.

brown_betty : Right. But... if Dick is well known as a criminal, Tim would recognize his *name*

brown_betty : Does he know from the beginning?

maelithil has entered the chat room.

maelithil : oooh, did this work?

rubynye: I figured that Tim starts as Oracle's -- hi, Mael!~

rubynye : Starts as Oracle

maelithil : yay!

rubynye : 's agent sent to infiltrate Grayson's organization.

rubynye : He finds himself Seduced by Handsome Evil.

rubynye : I may be excessively romantic. and in need of sleep.

brown_betty : no, go on.

maelithil: before aim killed me I was going to share this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/maelic/Robin-Annual4-09.jpg