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So, several days ago, another round of discussion began, this time in LOTR (mostly) RPS fandom, on the question of mocking fanfic. I'm moderately against. I mean, we've all seen utterly hilariously bad things, and laughed, and so on. But.... as I said elsewhere, the [livejournal.com profile] fanfic_hate thread about me bothered me so much I still sometimes have nightmares about it, and I would be pretty horrified if I found one of my stories MST'd somewhere, certainly to the point of tears and possibly to the point of ceasing to write at all. So that's where I'm coming from on this subject.

There's a lot I could write about this, but I'll try to be brief. Globally, I think I see this in terms of what one has the right to do vs what one is in the right to do, and in terms of the conflict over where we all end and begin as people, and what our responsibilities are as writers and readers. .When one puts something up to be read by others, one must know that one can get any and all responses. For example, I know that by putting my stories up I risk finding one of them MSTd, or having a series of savage reviews that disagree with every interpretation, or being told I waste bandwidth and should delete my LJ. If someone says such a thing it's up to me as to how I deal with it; I know I'm tender-hearted, and when I first became a fanfic writer I had to consider that when deciding whether or not to publically post. However, just because all responses are *possible* doesn't make all of them *right*. I would not think I was being a good person to leave such responses for people, and I don't think it improves the world of fanfic for people to leave them. Would I stop them if I could? No, I wouldn't. But I think it's a valid statement to ask people not to do so, to say that being nicer is possible and might be a better course.

There is, of course, always more than one side. To address just one of several other sides to this, writers have, I believe, a responsibility to not respond to well-meant comments as flames. (It's one of those differences that could have, and has had, much writing devoted to it. Often though, it's pretty clear. "If you can't read the source text properly you should not write fanfic and waste everyone's time" is a different sort of statement than "Character X actually has hazel eyes," even if sparked by the same feature of a story, let alone the difference between "if you can't read the source text properly..." and "I usually read Character A and Character B together, not A and C" as two responses to the same feature of a story.) It's better for everyone involved, not least in helping readers feel that trying to be helpful is worthwhile. That said....

...personally, this controversy has made me think about why it is we *do* write, about people's varying reasons. Many people have defended mocking by saying that they post stories in order to improve as authors, so they want criticism and want to be free to make any comment they choose to others. While improving my writing is one of my goals, it isn't my only one. I am not so self-sufficient that I find positive reinforcement superfluous. After a fair bit of criticism that boiled down to "you aren't writing what I want to read," I decided that I wanted to write for an audience who will share certain basic assumptions with me and be interested in some of the same things I am, for whom I could write enough of what they wanted to read that we could usefully communicate about the rest. I also find that constructive criticism mentions what worked in a piece of fiction as well as what didn't, which is pretty much antithetical to mocking.

Also, well, from my perspective what insisting on mockery boils down to is reserving the right to sit in judgement on people, about which my feelings are mixed. We do, and have to, make judgements every day about all sorts of things. And yet....I've read comments that clearly carried the subtext of "I know this better than you do" and or "There is no validity to your efforts." People have said in this discussion that if someone can discourage you from writing by mocking you then you didn't want to write badly enough, that flames ought to make you want to do better and show the flamers they are wrong, but I'm not certain I agree with that, because I think it's possible to convince someone that it's *impossible* for them to do better and that they should give up. And it feels weird, if not worse, to think of people sitting in judgement on my worth; I wouldn't want to contribute to giving others that feeling.

I haven't really gone into badfic communities and the like, aside of my own experience with the community mentioned above, mostly because my reaction to a story I find actually lacking in quality (not always the same thing as a story I just don't like, though my reaction is the same) is to go on to the next one. So I don't really *get* them, except as that people are interested in a great many things. I think my reaction to all this boils down to that as a reader I would rather see the goal of having more good stories to read met by having more authors feel free to write than by having authors punished for writing badly, and that as a writer I find it more *useful* to be told about what I accomplished as well as what I didn't, and that as a person if I want to be told I'm worthless I have plenty of places to go, I don't need to hear it it from online avocational communities, and I don't think others do either.

And of course there's so much else to be said, about how we define writing well vs writing badly, about personal responsibility in communication, about who we are behind our computers, about ....whew. OK, now that I've said all this, hopefully the topic can cease bugging me sufficiently that I can get back to writing.

Date: 2005-01-24 01:27 pm (UTC)
ext_28878: (Default)
From: [identity profile] claudia603.livejournal.com
It really is a jumbled mess, isn't it? I know I"m awfully indecisive about the whole thing...I don't like those bad!fic communities at all. I think they're a waste of time and energy, time far better spent writing or improving your own craft or giving feedback to stories that you actually like. At the same time, I still think that I have the right to not like something and want to share it with a few friends, locked and out of view. Perhaps it seems nastier somehow that it's behind locked doors, like a snobby high school clique? But I would rather be snotty that way than risk unnecessarily hurting someone.

I do tend to have more of a sense of humor when it comes to being MSTed and all...but that could be because I know that even if a certain mocking sector of fandom hates what I write, I know I still have a loyal fan base of a few people...It DOES still cracks me up that whoever hate-listed me on fanfic_hate actually said that they hated every. single. one. of my fics. Now, my question is, if they hated my writing so very much, then why in the world did they spend so much time reading all 5,000,000 of my stories? :-D

Date: 2005-01-24 04:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karadin.livejournal.com
That's what makes me shake my head. If you don't like the stories, or the site or the art or the journal, etc. why do you read/look at it? More loser they, in my opinion.

Date: 2005-01-24 06:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elgato-gamgins.livejournal.com
why do you read/look at it?

Simple: To have something to laugh and point at.

Date: 2005-01-24 09:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elgato-gamgins.livejournal.com
:( It's the truth. *hugs*

Date: 2005-01-24 09:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] birdcordwangler.livejournal.com
But the point is, it's sad that there are people who have nothing better to do with their time than laugh and point at the n00bs.

Date: 2005-01-25 08:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unhobbityhobbit.livejournal.com
That, or they're masochistic.

Date: 2005-01-25 10:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danachan.livejournal.com
why do you read/look at it?

Because, no matter what, we have a right to like and dislike anything that we want. *shrug* I mean, if you do like something - you should let it be known, yeah? The same goes for looking at the other side of that proverbial boat, as well.

Date: 2005-01-26 07:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karadin.livejournal.com
speaking from personal experience, I only have so much time I can spend online, so I'd rather read the posted work by artists and writers I like, and spend time on my own work. Some people have more time on their hands than I do!

Date: 2005-01-24 09:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Actually, all things considered, behind locked doors is still better than it *could* be, you know? I mean, mostly I just wish people could compromise, but anyway.

Now, my question is, if they hated my writing so very much, then why in the world did they spend so much time reading all 5,000,000 of my stories?

Heh, yeah, there is that.

Date: 2005-01-24 03:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elgato-gamgins.livejournal.com
I'm a member of a couple of badfic communities(for Mary-Sues), but I used to post stories, but now I don't.It got old. Now,I just read them and giggle at the MSTs and go on.The ones I'm a member of you can only a small piece of the story,and you can't criticize the author, just the story. And a lot of the other members actually give CC to the authors and such. But it isn't like that everywhere. :(

It sucks that you got mentioned in that community. I rather like your stories and your writing style, but we all have opinions.

But by putting your work on the 'Net you're open to any type of criticism, good or bad, and you either take it or let it go. I say, if you get a flame, keep writing! Show them that you can do better and that their flames didn't mean anything to you. If you show that it bothered you, then they'll start to mock you more and start to criticize you not your work. That's how it usually goes in those types of communities. If you're like "Yea, you don't like my story and that's fine, that's your opinion. I see the mistakes that I made and see where I can improve, bla bla bla", then they'll actually be pretty nice to you, from what I've witnessed. ;)Don't let them know that it effected you. :D

I've never had a story of mine reported somewhere, and if it has, I'd like to know where. I know that sounds odd, but they usually find little mistakes and things we as authors can work on. ;)

Date: 2005-01-24 09:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
I know, and I certainly would never wade into one of those communities and try to defend myself (I have no wish to have a bunch of people descend upon my journal and try to flame me off LJ) but it just seems so cruel for folks to do that to others. Besides, who made them the arbiters of good fic and bad, of who should be writing and who should go away?

That whole "show them you can do better" thing doesn't really work anyway, IME. If people have decided to hate you, they hate you. And that is, I guess, what bugs me most about all this. Isn't it better for all concerned to gain happiness out of building up rather than tearing down?

*rereads* I think I'd be a lot more subtle and clear and less impassioned if it weren't midnight, but I'm going to let this stand, I guess.

Date: 2005-01-24 09:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
PS Thank you for the compliment, and I'm sorry I forgot to say that before. :)

Date: 2005-01-24 09:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elgato-gamgins.livejournal.com
You're welcome. ;)

Date: 2005-01-24 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elasg.livejournal.com
Very well balanced post. Thank you for writing it.

After a fair bit of criticism that boiled down to "you aren't writing what I want to read,"

My guess is that that is the basis for most criticism, actually.

I don't read on those hate sites either - it isn't as if one would go there for a recommendation, would one? I believe they are put up simply for entertainment value and since I've never been very entertained by someone else's humiliation, there seems little point.

Hope this helps get you back on track and writing again.

Date: 2005-01-25 10:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Thanks. :)I think I have a little more to write on this and then I should, hopefully, be done.

Date: 2005-01-25 12:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aelfgifu.livejournal.com
well said.

Well the great thing for me (I guess) is that there is no mystery, I am sure that I am on every badfic site, and I have learned to make peace with it and find it amusing in a weird kind of way. And I will chime in with Claudia in my amazement that people who hate such and such fic continue to read such and such fic. On the Godawful fanfic site, for example, the people complained about all 60 chapters of my tale, AND the alternative chapters, AND the illustrations, AND the RPGame. That's a Godawful amount of "research" for a Godawful fic!" heheheheh. AND one of the people who "stumbled across" my stuff has been on my LJ friends list for a while now (under a different handle), so go figure.

I do read the flames I've gotten to my class when I pass back tests (no reference to the fic,of course) as a way of letting my students laugh at my expense too. But as you said, posting on the net means you are out there for better or worse. And on the fanfic hate thread (as with the folks that went at Claudia's stuff) they seemed to know an awful lot about your fics. Perhaps you have "secret readers" who hate your stuff so much they just... can't... stop....reading.

Date: 2005-01-25 10:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rubynye.livejournal.com
Hi! Thank you for commenting to me. :) Managing to laugh would be a much better response, I guess. Something else to work on. :)

Date: 2005-01-25 10:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danachan.livejournal.com
I wish I had something useful to say, but I'll send you *lovings*, because people here certainly have said much more (and said it better) than I ever could. *grin*

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